Recreational Sustainable Mogul style?

[jack97]

Before the tip dive at the top of the bump, what should the skier do with feet as the bump approaches? Just ride up, engage core to stay upright and absorb with knees? Shoot the feet forward and absorb? Something else?

The skier is using the face of the bump as a kicker. When you want some air, you need to pop, you approach the bump with the knee slightly flex and straighten them out to make the pop. Once a little airborne, you can do one of two things to drive your tips down, either drive your knees forward or pull your feet back.

IMO, this emulates closer to what happens and what one should do when you "miss" on a bump and get a little too much air.

Edit,This is an advance move, IMO aspiring bumpers should spend more time developing their short turns, skiing center, outside leg dominance and flexing to control the speed.

 

[KingGrump]

@Plai , if you don't mind me asking. How old are you?

 

[jack97]

Age is just a number if you can ski like this.

 

[Plai]

@Plai , if you don't mind me asking. How old are you?

Birthday was just this Sunday, 1966.

So, to paraphrase someone... Old, not so fat, not so out of shape, got good knees.

I think I can what @jack97 described.

 

[dbostedo]

This video is a good example of one of the major differentiators in mogul technique that really hasn't been called out in this thread. That is the use of the "pivot and slam" (relying highly on A&E to get most of the job done) versus a more edged/carved approach that actually uses the ski sidecut). Watch the Reilly mogul videos to see someone who is really turning in the moguls versus pivoting a flat ski. The other 2 PMTS videos I posted are also about as far away from pivot and slam as you can get.

I spent 25 years perfecting my pivot and slam. I now have 2 bad knees to show for it. It's taken a lot of work to get away from using that technique when I get into tougher steeper moguls; it's my fall back, but gets me into trouble now at my age because it's so reliant on A&E for the speed control.

Learn how to use your edges in the moguls - it's more sustainable.

A&E???

 

[Josh Matta]

A&E???

sure but you do not need as much if you choose a line that isnt as up and down....

 

[Plai]

A&E???

Absorption and extension

 

[dbostedo]

sure but you do not need as much if you choose a line that isnt as up and down....

I meant that I didn't know what it stood for... @Plai got me though.

 

[Coach13]

A&E???

Absorption and extension

 

[mdf]

That's Mr. "Jackrabbit on cocaine" that I pass, then stop to film at 4:30, then pass again.

 

[skier]

The vid is less than optimal in that the demo at the end does not fit the explanation of the moves that coach is recommending. And that's probably fine given the intended audience is U10 and I don't imagine they have a lot of time for scripting/retakes.

Maybe this would have been a better vid where there are many examples of the feet coming under the glutes on absorption. Although it seems to me that the rotation and a small amount of lateral displacement into the bump and subsequent 'rebound' play a significant role.

There's an important point that I would like to reiterate. Now that the conversation has been dropping off in this thread, I think I can do it without providing distraction for those trying to learn non-comp techniques.

Pulling the feet back is a great technique for providing speed control, low impact, and efficiency when skiing more direct which can lead to sustainable mogul skiing. I put up a video of a Steamboat mogul coach (Bobby Aldighieri) discussing how to pull the feet back when absorbing. Geepers showed pictures of Aldighieri with the feet in front of him as proof that he didn't actually do what he says to do. I've responded how that isn't the case on several occasions, but it may be that my explanation was too complicated for people with little mogul experience, so here's a better illustration:

Absorption doesn’t happen instantaneously. At the beginning of absorption the feet will be in front of the skier. As the skier absorbs, they pull the feet back, so that by the time absorption is completed, the feet will be under the butt. Geepers showed pictures at the beginning or the middle of absorption. He didn't show pictures at the end of absorption after the hips pass the crest of the bump. At the beginning of absorption, the feet must be in front of the skier. There is no choice even with closed ankles, because of geometry and range of motion. At the end of absorption, the feet could be in front of the skier or behind the skier. This is a choice, and Aldighieri is saying to pull the feet back during the absorption phase, so that the feet are under the butt by the end of absorption. Here is a picture of Aldighieri at the end of absorption, and you can see that his feet are under his butt. He is doing what he says to do.

Compare this to one of Geeper's favorite mogul skiers at the same phase of the turn.

This skier has his feet in front of him at that phase of the turn, which is clearly different than Aldighieri who has his feet behind him. If the feet are in front of you at that point in the turn it takes much more effort and impact to control speed when skiing directly.

Even after the crest of the bump, there are cases where you can see mogul skiers without the feet pulled back as much. Older styles of bump skiing tended to pull back less. There are also some situations where the skier isn't trying to control speed, and they will float past the backside without pulling back the feet. Sometimes the mogul skier will get a little air, and they will land with their feet not as far back. However, all of these examples do not negate the fact that modern mogul skiers use the pullback technique regularly for speed control and efficiency.

 

[Rod9301]

There's an important point that I would like to reiterate. Now that the conversation has been dropping off in this thread, I think I can do it without providing distraction for those trying to learn non-comp techniques.

Pulling the feet back is a great technique for providing speed control, low impact, and efficiency when skiing more direct which can lead to sustainable mogul skiing. I put up a video of a Steamboat mogul coach (Bobby Aldighieri) discussing how to pull the feet back when absorbing. Geepers showed pictures of Aldighieri with the feet in front of him as proof that he didn't actually do what he says to do. I've responded how that isn't the case on several occasions, but it may be that my explanation was too complicated for people with little mogul experience, so here's a better illustration:

Absorption doesn’t happen instantaneously. At the beginning of absorption the feet will be in front of the skier. As the skier absorbs, they pull the feet back, so that by the time absorption is completed, the feet will be under the butt. Geepers showed pictures at the beginning or the middle of absorption. He didn't show pictures at the end of absorption after the hips pass the crest of the bump. At the beginning of absorption, the feet must be in front of the skier. There is no choice even with closed ankles, because of geometry and range of motion. At the end of absorption, the feet could be in front of the skier or behind the skier. This is a choice, and Aldighieri is saying to pull the feet back during the absorption phase, so that the feet are under the butt by the end of absorption. Here is a picture of Aldighieri at the end of absorption, and you can see that his feet are under his butt. He is doing what he says to do.

View attachment 63572



Compare this to one of Geeper's favorite mogul skiers at the same phase of the turn.

View attachment 63573

This skier has his feet in front of him at that phase of the turn, which is clearly different than Aldighieri who has his feet behind him. If the feet are in front of you at that point in the turn it takes much more effort and impact to control speed when skiing directly.

Even after the crest of the bump, there are cases where you can see mogul skiers without the feet pulled back as much. Older styles of bump skiing tended to pull back less. There are also some situations where the skier isn't trying to control speed, and they will float past the backside without pulling back the feet. Sometimes the mogul skier will get a little air, and they will land with their feet not as far back. However, all of these examples do not negate the fact that modern mogul skiers use the pullback technique regularly for speed control and efficiency.

Correct

 

[Mike King]

@skier, thanks for that. It seems we are (mostly?) in agIreement. As I said much earlier in this thread, to get maximum absorption, you need to allow the hips to travel behind the heels. That move isn't achieved by shoving the feet forward, which would tend to plantar flex the ankle, but by bending the knee and hip, allowing the hip to travel behind the heels. If even more flexion is needed, the hip can continue to flex and allow the upper body to fold a bit over the lower body. But it is important to get the upper body back over the feet. This can be by pulling the feet back, or by allowing the feet to stall while the upper body catches up.

Where we might have a bit of a disagreement is how much? That is, should you aim to be far forward on the front of the ski? It seems to me that what the comp bump skiers are in part looking for is to have the pressure point quite far forward so that the tails displace (take a wider path than the tails) and create a braking effect. That's certainly one way to ski, and it might be a useful manipulation of fore/aft pressure control. It appears to me that JF Beaulieu, in the frame that you picked above, is using a different technique. He is allowing the feet to travel far to the side. And while he appears to have the pressure point aft on the ski in the frame you picked, by the time that the skis arrive at the apex of the turn (a rounder turn than one that comp skiers take), he will likely be over the center of the ski and able to pressure the whole ski to redirect his mass. I would also say that if JF miscalculates, it will be a tough recovery. It appears to me that both are valid techniques and I think I use combinations of both in my skiing. What is common though is accessing flexion and extension.

Am I mischaracterizing what you are saying?

Mike

 

[geepers]

Geepers showed pictures of Aldighieri with the feet in front of him as proof that he didn't actually do what he says to do.

As usual you missed my point. Listen to Aldighieri at 3:08...."We never want the heel piece to be here...." and the reasons why.


Then in his demo he goes on to stick his heels exactly where he said "we never want".

Telling your students never do this and then doing it in your demo... I'm not sure that's such a great idea.

Not going to beat on Deb Armstrong as that's a vid probably shot off the cuff and aimed at U10s. IMO she does a great job with her vids for that audience. You, OTOH, could have picked more carefully to avoid giving everyone the wrong impression. Did my level best for you in the ladies bump Whistler Olympics that I posted for @jack97 where they do take their heels to their glutes on absorption. In that case they are also using the face of the bump for an edge set.

I'll give you my take on Section 8 snapshot later - I'm off skiing. Suffice to ask why you don't post the vid sequence for that turn he's making so ppl can see it in context.

 

[skier]

@skier, thanks for that. It seems we are (mostly?) in agIreement. As I said much earlier in this thread, to get maximum absorption, you need to allow the hips to travel behind the heels. That move isn't achieved by shoving the feet forward, which would tend to plantar flex the ankle, but by bending the knee and hip, allowing the hip to travel behind the heels. If even more flexion is needed, the hip can continue to flex and allow the upper body to fold a bit over the lower body. But it is important to get the upper body back over the feet. This can be by pulling the feet back, or by allowing the feet to stall while the upper body catches up.

Where we might have a bit of a disagreement is how much? That is, should you aim to be far forward on the front of the ski? It seems to me that what the comp bump skiers are in part looking for is to have the pressure point quite far forward so that the tails displace (take a wider path than the tails) and create a braking effect. That's certainly one way to ski, and it might be a useful manipulation of fore/aft pressure control. It appears to me that JF Beaulieu, in the frame that you picked above, is using a different technique. He is allowing the feet to travel far to the side. And while he appears to have the pressure point aft on the ski in the frame you picked, by the time that the skis arrive at the apex of the turn (a rounder turn than one that comp skiers take), he will likely be over the center of the ski and able to pressure the whole ski to redirect his mass. I would also say that if JF miscalculates, it will be a tough recovery. It appears to me that both are valid techniques and I think I use combinations of both in my skiing. What is common though is accessing flexion and extension.

Am I mischaracterizing what you are saying?

Mike

First Mike, Let me apologize. My first entry into this thread was modest.

"When skiing more direct, absorption and extension is essential. Pulling the feet back when absorbing gives speed control with much less effort. This is why mogul coaches say to maintain constant shin pressure."

Still though, I got "not gonna work", "who cares about comp bump skiing", and the banter ensued. So, then you came into the thread, and I interpreted your post as backing up those other folks by saying that pulling back the feet is not good bump skiing. So, that's why I jumped on you so strongly, and I apologize.

The purpose of pulling the feet back is to get tip pressure. There are several reasons for this.

1. First, pressure on the tips arc a tighter turn.

2. As the shovel initiates a turn with tip pressure it scrapes and provides speed control.

3. By the time you get forward with weight on the skis, the tips are already driving into the flatter or uphill sections of the bump, whereas the tails are on the steepest part of the bump. Putting weight on a ski on a steep slope causes more acceleration than on a flat slope. So, if your weight is on your tails you will accelerate more than if your weight is on the tips, because the tips are driving into a flat slope while the tails are on a steep slope.

4. A big part of speed control is edging on the backside of the bump. But, the ground is dropping away from you. So how do you apply edge pressure on the backside while the ground is dropping away? Well, you have to extend your legs. But, if you put pressure on the steepest section you'll actually accelerate, so there's a plus and minus where the edging is slowing you down but yet you're pushing on a steep slope speeding you up. The edging can overtake the acceleration, but it takes lots of scraping and lots of extension with the legs. This type of extension with the feet in front pushing on the edges takes a tremendous amount of energy. With the feet back, the edging is on the shovel which is on a flatter part of the slope as described above, and it's not necessary to actually push with the legs. Just by resting on the cuff, and having the slope change underneath the skis, the legs will straighten without any work from the skier. It's kind of like in carving where the skis do all the work. In this vertical turn, the slope and equipment do all the work. One mogul coach explained it to me that he doesn't even think of it as extension. All he thinks is that he falls on his knees (cuff of the boot). Falling on the knees is part one of extension. It straightens the hips, but it's done weightless, so it takes little effort. Then part two of extension happens slightly later as the legs straighten naturally by skiing across a flattening slope also with no effort.

So, by pulling the feet back, you get speed control with much less effort. This allows a more direct line with less skidding and effort.

 

[skier]

As usual you missed my point. Listen to Aldighieri at 3:08...."We never want the heel piece to be here...." and the reasons why.


Then in his demo he goes on to stick his heels exactly where he said "we never want".

Telling your students never do this and then doing it in your demo... I'm not sure that's such a great idea.

Not going to beat on Deb Armstrong as that's a vid probably shot off the cuff and aimed at U10s. IMO she does a great job with her vids for that audience. You, OTOH, could have picked more carefully to avoid giving everyone the wrong impression. Did my level best for you in the ladies bump Whistler Olympics that I posted for @jack97 where they do take their heels to their glutes on absorption. In that case they are also using the face of the bump for an edge set.

I'll give you my take on Section 8 snapshot later - I'm off skiing. Suffice to ask why you don't post the vid sequence for that turn he's making so ppl can see it in context.

Please, Geepers, listen to his words:

"So, it's very important to contract the hamstring and their bum to get that pull move underneath, now they are able to drive down the backside of the mogul, but without that you're here. You can't drive down the backside of the mogul. You're working in this plane you're backseat, no Bueno on that ever."

He's showing the position for driving down the backside. He's describing how you need to drive down the backside.

Here he is, driving down the backside.

Here's the section 8 guy driving down the backside:

So, the key phrase is driving down the backside. When you absorb, you pull the feet back to drive down the backside with that forward position. It's physically impossible to get into that position driving up the frontside, which is why he's saying drive down the backside. In a comp line, you do not want to get backseat like Aldighieri describes. There's no need to discuss the section 8 skier, it's only to show the contrast between the feet in front while driving down the backside vs. the feet behind you while driving down the backside.

So, to summarize, he's talking about driving down the backside.

driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.

Got it yet? Nope, still arguing, ok let's drive it home a little more:

driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.

How about now? Still want to parse words?

driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.driving down the backside.

You want to be pulled back driving down the backside, never here driving down the backside, because that's backseat and backseat driving down the backside is no good for tight lines. Aldighieri never is backseat driving down the backside. Still don't get it? What is it going to take?

driving down the backside
driving down the backside
driving down the backside driving down the backside. Ok I give up. If you don't get it now, you'll never get it.

 

[Plai]

@skier Take a deep breath We're trying to understand you.
@skier @tball can you guys describe the mechanics of the "Pulling the feet back"?

In my mind I see a few possibilities [and me likely to have missed something]:
1. Something close to flappers, where the heels are brought close to the glutes by contracting the hamstrings?

2. Or is it something like an aft-shuffle?
3. Or is it the combination of the two?

I think we kinda agree that the tips have to go down the hill (aka "driving down the hill").

So, with respect to "pulling the feet back", please describe the mechanics (or the feelings) of this move.[/MEDIA]

 

[dbostedo]

"So, it's very important to contract the hamstring and their bum to get that pull move underneath, now they are able to drive down the backside of the mogul, but without that you're here. You can't drive down the backside of the mogul. You're working in this plane you're backseat, no Bueno on that ever."

I think you're missing @geepers point still... he agrees with the section you've focused on here.

He's saying that just before saying that you have to pull back, the coach says never to absorb by putting your feet under your hamstring/thigh. But he actually does that, followed by more pull back in order to drive down the backside. He was not at all clear that he was referring only to driving down the backside. That's all @geepers is saying - that he actually does both in the demo; Both what he said to do, and to not do.

 

[skier]

@skier Take a deep breath We're trying to understand you.
@skier @tball can you guys describe the mechanics of the "Pulling the feet back"?

In my mind I see a few possibilities [and me likely to have missed something]:
1. Something close to flappers, where the heels are brought close to the glutes by contracting the hamstrings?

2. Or is it something like an aft-shuffle?
3. Or is it the combination of the two?

I think we kinda agree that the tips have to go down the hill (aka "driving down the hill").

So, with respect to "pulling the feet back", please describe the mechanics (or the feelings) of this move.[/MEDIA]

In practice it's all one fluid motion, pull the feet up, back, rotate the skis, and tip the skis blended in with the carve/smear at the bottom of the turn.

 

[Plai]

In practice it's all one fluid motion, pull the feet up, back, rotate the skis, and tip the skis blended in with the carve/smear at the bottom of the turn.

Perfect. So the "back" part is just contraction of the hamstrings. Something like kicking one's glutes with ones heels?
Once this is done, the tips of the skis are down, the tails are up.

One more question on my mind... do you feel a "pause" and then a "fall" during the "pulling the feet back"?
I think of this moment as similar to the apex of a ball toss. That short moment should allow the upper body and head to get back forward of the feet (in combination with the "feet pullback".)