Recreational Sustainable Mogul style?

Discussion in 'Ski School' started by Plai, Jan 18, 2019.

  1. Plai

    Plai Paul Lai Skier

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    @SSSdave says that he spends all day in the bumps (at Tahoe area resorts).
    @KingGrump comments about skiing moguls 6 out of 7 days at Taos.

    This has got me thinking:
    1. I want to do what they do.
    2. I don't know how they do what they do.

    Please, pretty please, drop words of wisdom, or better yet show me video, of how to be a more efficient (sustainable) mogul skier.
     
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  2. Josh Matta

    Josh Matta Making fresh tracks Instructor

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    low edge angle tactic based skiing, slower than most people think to go, is how they do it.

    Some skiing videos I have made that demonstrate sustainable mogul skiing

    a good drill.



    the "outer berm" turn



    when going gets tough in the east. tougher than you will ever see this in tahoe.





    I am in the process of making a complete bump series of videos that the only assumption is that you can make round skidded turn on blue-black groomers. the goal being bump skiing that is a low impact and slow as you want.
     
  3. Seldomski

    Seldomski Paralysis by analysis Skier

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    Looking forward to seeing those!

    @Plai check out the Clendenin Method - their approach is similar to what @Josh Matta is describing. Skidded, round, parallel turns with narrow stance, though they like to use the word 'drift.'

    https://clendeninmethod.com/
     
  4. Thread Starter
    TS
    Plai

    Plai Paul Lai Skier

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    This looks like the "blue line" from Bumps for Boomers:


    Why do you like that more than the "green line" from Bumps for Boomers?
     
  5. Josh Matta

    Josh Matta Making fresh tracks Instructor

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    I would agree that the berm line is close to the blue line. The reason why I like that line is that demostrate slow line fast bump skiing, meaning tactics and not technique are the primary means of speed control. Also the Green line in the east is typically a very harsh line and that sideways slide down the backside of the bump can lead to slamming into the uphill side of the next one. I see no reason why it wouldnt work on the softs bump shown in the video, even on powder days its not something I would want to do in the east.

    If the blue line is present Ill take it every single time, ifs not I change up my tactics to where the snow will be, which can vary greatly.
     
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  6. mdf

    mdf entering the Big Couloir Skier

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    Here you go.
    The guy in yellow had just gotten a tutorial in "the Taos way". The others are using various "traditional" lines.
    Turn the sound off, or forgive my heavy breathing. I did say I was not always successful in being efficient. Plus I really had to hurry to get far enough ahead of these guys to get out the camera.
     
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  7. Thread Starter
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    Plai

    Plai Paul Lai Skier

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    Well, I've been practicing the "in berm"/"backside"/"green line" and imagine myself to look somewhat similar to the last guy (in orange) in @mdf's video. Though, I also suspect the slope in @mdf video is probably a few more degrees more difficult.

    Thanks @Josh Matta for explaining. Yet another tool to start adding to the tool box.

    Edit: last guy is in orange, not red.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2019
  8. Josh Matta

    Josh Matta Making fresh tracks Instructor

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    Yep, Grump is using tactics and not technique for speed control...the others are skiing some variant of a fast line slow
     
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  9. KevinF

    KevinF Gathermeister-Stowe Team Gathermeister

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    Speaking from the perspective of a weekend hack who still enjoys bump skiing even in crappy conditions.

    My "default" line is alternatively referred to in the above videos as the "blue line", Josh calls it the "outer berm" line, and I've always preferred the "buddy bump" term instead. i.e., bank a turn off the "next" (i.e,. buddy) bump. The hardest part of buddy bump skiing is realizing how much time you have to make the next turn.

    @Josh Matta and I ski at the same place, and as he alludes to above... there are times you need to get a little creative as the "buddy" isn't there or won't be an auto-pilot to where you want to be, etc.

    At any rate, I can easily ski 10, 15k vertical of bumps a day. If you're doing it right, knees don't really feel anything. It feels relaxing.
     
  10. UGASkiDawg

    UGASkiDawg AKA David Pugski Ski Tester

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    The guy in the blue jean jacket is my good buddy Kurt. He's no intermediate....

    Oops and the last hack is me
     
  11. skier

    skier Getting on the lift Inactive Pass Pulled

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    IMO, the easiest line depends on the conditions and bump shapes. Sometimes, one approach isn't even viable while the other one is, and vice versa.
     
  12. Thread Starter
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    Plai

    Plai Paul Lai Skier

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    @mdf's mister "yellow" is @KingGrump ?!? ;-)

    So far, my knees feel good. It's my thighs (yes, not quads)... which says I'm in the beakseat too often and correcting. The bicycle maneuver has been on my mind (at my desk ;-), but I always for get to practice on slope :(
     
  13. cosmoliu

    cosmoliu Out on the slopes Skier

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    Subscribed
     
  14. François Pugh

    François Pugh Making fresh tracks Skier

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    A couple of things I've noticed along the way to sucking at a higher level in bumps:
    1) Speed control comes from the technique, which is a short radius non-carved (as in not arc-2-arc, but what some would call skidded, but still using edges to turn skis) turn. If you are making good short radius, non-carved turns with good consistent ski-snow contact you are killing a lot of speed, whether you know it or not.
    2) Terrain absorption is the key to allowing 1) to do its work.
    3) Strangely enough, practicing high performance arc-2-arc turns on groomers with the skis continuing to turn up the hill as my body does a flex to release transition has improved my absorption abilities a lot ( I get to do a lot of that before seeing my next bump run).
    4) Beginning bump skiers need to ski slowly. No, slower than that.
     
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  15. mdf

    mdf entering the Big Couloir Skier

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    That's not Grump -- it is someone else you know. He had gotten a tutorial from Grump's son the day before, after I botched my explanation.
    (And his usual bump style is quite different -- he was explicitly trying to ski like the Grumps.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2019
  16. KingGrump

    KingGrump Most Interesting Man In The World Team Gathermeister

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    That is not me. That is a big tall Gringo. I am a short fat old Asian dude. :D
    That was the day after we crashed Mother's Day at A-Basin.

    Josh's video more or less covers most of it. The usual stuff - Ski the slow line fast. Use terrain and gravity. Think tactical.

    BTW, I usually ski everyday when I am at Taos. It's the lazy, no good band of instructors that usually run with that take Saturday off. Wimps. :roflmao:
     
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  17. Thread Starter
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    Plai

    Plai Paul Lai Skier

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    I think you're holding out. Or maybe better phrased, maybe you don't know what you know? :D

    I was actually hoping for more emphasis on efficiency ... how "not to wear out" comments ... like, "ski lightly" or "dance like a butterfly",
    rather than just line choices. I'm wondering, how to "ski lightly" and "dance like a butterfly" down moguls. ;-)
     
  18. SSSdave

    SSSdave life is short precious ...don't waste it Skier

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    Plai you have to understand in the 70s and 80s before resorts built express lifts and groomed everything with a vengeance, before the all mountain fat ski era, resort mountains were ridiculously bumpy so advanced skiers learned to spend their days there. In any case, my average energy output skiing bumps even when in best relaxed form is greater than when skiing groomed slopes. After a few runs in steeper bums, have to take a longer break or ski groomed slopes a bit. When I stop on a bump run, I often patiently stop twice as long as others even though I don't need to.

    The biggest issue in this era for hopeful mogul skiers is that resorts tend to groom all the lower gradient slopes that decades ago skiers learned to ski moguls on. Resorts need to offer an ungroomed run or two on moderate gradient slopes. A related issue is there are far fewer skiers able to ski moguls or wanting to ski moguls thus there needs to be ways to concentrate those that will so they can keep snow on those slopes nicely loose. And that ought be directly below lifts and not out in some obscure ignored slope few can see.

    A key is lower slope gradient small to moderate shaped bumps, softer packed powder snow, and good numbers of skiers skiing those slopes keeping the snow loose. Since you are a Tahoe guy, practice at the most popular high elevation (8.6k to 9.5k) packed powder north facing mogul run in the region, Little Dipper.

    https://www.pugski.com/threads/little-dipper-bumps-at-heavenly.8631/#post-229686

    The top above tower 11 is ideal but don't get sucked into the steeper large moguls below that. Traverse out skiers right by tower 11 out through wide Aries Woods and then ski the short easy Jacks bumps. You will get to see lots of others ski those lines both from the Comet lift and when skiing down so ought to pick up much just by observing.

    As for technique, I'm no instructor however three key things advanced rec bump skiers do is have good upper to lower body separation generally facing down a slope, are usually mostly on their downhill ski during peak compression of turns even though it looks like both skis are close together, and have a relaxed lower back during a part of turns while gravity is most active dropping one down. Mogul skiers use several tactics as skiing on both skis little edged porpoise like and many ways of choosing where on the bump shapes to make turns. One last bit of wisdom that will confuse many, is there are really two goals, competition bump skiing where SPEED is one of the 3 judged criteria so technique is about going FAST, and rec bump skiing where exhilarating fun is the goal, so slower, less strenuous, more relaxed. People will talk up the two as though one ought use the same styles and form but beware, it does not need to be though the skilled comp skiers can indeed simply slow down their technique.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2019
  19. cantunamunch

    cantunamunch Meh Skier

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    When you separate the means from the end, the end is unachievable.
     
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  20. Josh Matta

    Josh Matta Making fresh tracks Instructor

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    yeah all the post have been extremely on topic and informative about the means to get to the end.
     

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