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mdf

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I usually ski bumps aggressively, perhaps a bit too close to my limits.
Last year I was skiing with another pugskier at A-Basin who was coming back from a health issue, and he said "I don't want to be rude, but I feel like I'm ready to try skiing the full length of Ramrod non-stop, so I'll wait for you at the bottom."

Of course, I couldn't let that stand, so I had to ski Ramrod non-stop. I skied the bumps about 20% slower than I usually do. I made it without stopping and was about 50% less tired than I would have been at full tilt -- the slowdown effect is definitely non-linear. The speed was all I changed, skied a reasonably direct line just like the other runs. So the same line can be sustainable or not.

I'm a fan of having more than one bump style. It is hard to change, though. My default approach just happens, and anything else I have to think about.
 

CoPow

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In that system,
Pivot slips = the anti-christ
But, you should go over to that forum and ask about it. Report back.
Oh no, I won't touch it with a 100 foot pole. I do love his method mind you though.
 
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KingGrump

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Of course, I couldn't let that stand, so I had to ski Ramrod non-stop. I skied the bumps about 20% slower than I usually do. I made it without stopping and was about 50% less tired than I would have been at full tilt -- the slowdown effect is definitely non-linear. The speed was all I changed, skied a reasonably direct line just like the other runs. So the same line can be sustainable or not.
Find the peace within.
I believe you have heard that before.
 

CoPow

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Seriously though, "sustainable" is probably not a best word. There is "high impact to the joints" and "high demand to endurance/power" and you can't do the former for a long time while you can "sustain" the later if you tried. There is something you just cannot do if you don't workout every week regardless of your age.
 
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SSSdave

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Well that may be true for the majority but there are exceptions. As one of the seniors on this board, my joints are still fine after decades of skiing bumps with a more relaxed recreational style because I've built up my neuromusculoskeletal system to deal with it. I also over my whole adult life have been summer backpacking carrying extra heavy weights that also use many of the same muscles and skelectal parts. The human body is amazingly plastic that an individual can develop to amazing levels with repetitive movements that a body learns and increasingly is able to perform automatically. When one repeats motion with increasing strength, bones and muscle change and grow physically.

Much of the instructive advice one reads about mogul skiing apparently doesn't significantly help the majority of advanced intermediate and advanced skiers because they never attain an efficient level of performance. The body's neuromusculoskeletal system is a lot more complex in ways that are subtle beyond words alone. That is why on most mogul slopes, only a minority of skiers ever ski long fall lines smoothly efficiently.

It isn't that those others could not learn but rather they haven't built the correct structures into their neuromusculoskeletal systems either because of incomplete or incorrect technique or especially lack of time on slopes trying to do so. Decades ago when there were vastly more moguls everywhere, the majority of recreation bump skiers didn't learn by formal instruction. A lot of what one learns in repetitive motion is beyond words and rather a result of getting in touch with our inner feelings. We bump skiers become familiar with the feelings of our proprioceptors, musculature, and balance so we don't need to think about those things because they flow out automatically. Many of us, also watch others move and like dancers copying movement of a choreographer, learn those movements without words simply by watching and copying their skilled movements. That noted it is also true a skilled instructor will get a person to that level faster though a person still needs to develop some of that skill from within.
 
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jack97

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A lot of what one learns in repetitive motion is beyond words and rather a result of getting in touch with our inner feelings. We bump skiers become familiar with the feelings of our proprioceptors, musculature, and balance so we don't need to think about those things because they flow out automatically.
I was going to let it go since it would beating a dead horse. "Sustainable" mogul skiing from my POV has no meaning. Once you get in dialed in with your techniques, you start making lines you never thought was in your reach, and that goes with speed as well. Once that happens, it grows and you start looking for lines that pushes your limits.... its organic.

Thinking about it some more, it applies with some degree to some one coming from the flats who wants to improve their bump skiing. Somewhere along the way, you have to put in the effort to make consecutive low impact turns in the bumps, as Plake stated, you have to earn it.
 

ADKmel

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Just skimmed this thread my 2cents
Go to Taos, (or other Mt with lots of bump trails) they will teach the slow line thru the bumps Or you can still zipper line them if you have the stamina and muscle groups, balance etc. The only way to learn to ski bumps is Get in them.
 

dbostedo

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Somewhere along the way, you have to put in the effort to make consecutive low impact turns in the bumps, as Plake stated, you have to earn it.
Maybe I missed something, but I don't think anyone in this thread said that you don't have to put in the effort to learn how to do it. I wouldn't say anything about any "sustainable" bump skiing approaches takes out the work or learning. It's just focused on being lower impact or lower exertion.
 

Mike King

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Absolutely. In "many" situations it is. Like if the snow is deep, I want my skis to glide almost completely along the length. Not to mention when I want to carve. In bumps though, a lot of times I want them to be a bit more sideways although rarely 90 degrees. Maybe like between 0 to 40 degrees? The secret is being able to modulate between that 0-40 degrees at will.

The problem is, this skill is hard, if not impossible, to see from outside. You can point out things like "hey your inside ski is too forward, pull your inside foot back" and things like that for carving turns or just about any turns. But it's kinda hard to point out what's wrong when a person is bit jerky doing, say, switch pivot slips. It's mostly very subtle edge and pressure control that you probably don't see.

So I said "unexplained" up there, but at the same time didn't say those videos are bad because, I can't really explain it myself, haha. I just did a bunch of drills and "got" it. If you or anybody here have a silver bullet in that, please share. By the way, I love HH's phantom foot method and think it is kind of a silver bullet in teaching people high quality turns. My feeling, which could definitely be wrong, though, is he doesn't like to do pivot slip variations all that much, and I think they help a lot especially in bumps, but at the same time like I said above, I understand that making my clients do them like a football coach probably doesn't work if I were an instructor.
We are in violent agreement for most of this. Looking back at the fundamental, the operative word is "control" -- there are many situations where good skiing requires some slip or drift, but great skiing comes with the ability to modulate edge angle at will in the midst of a turn. Many times I've decided to alter my line by "downshifting" and drifting to a lower line. It is a key skill, not only in the bumps, but in steeps and even in gates (think stivot).

Here in the Rockies, old variable snow may go to chunky monkey. This snow is pretty brutal to ski with a slip, so greater ski performance, e.g. tail following tip, is the key to smoothing the ride out, with the result a round turn.

The proponents of "get forward" will have a tough time with those conditions as they find themselves with the tail displacing, resulting in a rough ride and, possibly, tripping over the outside edge of their skis...

Mike
 
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Plai

Plai

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Moderators please close this thread.
I don't have the patience to repeated ask people to place "nice".
There hasn't been any progress in the discussion beyond the "violent agreement", which I'll call, "usual baiting and trolling".
If people don't know how to play"nice", let's take away the sandbox.
 

Tricia

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Moderators please close this thread.
I don't have the patience to repeated ask people to place "nice".
Threads like this make me want to walk into the room with my hands on my hips and say...
This is why we can't have nice things!

I put 5 pages of this thread in moderation until some of us have time to sort through and see if there is anything of value to put back. In the mean time, this thread is going to be locked.
 
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