Recreational Sustainable Mogul style?

[Mike King]

nobody seems to talk about practicing absorption/extension without the complication of actually turning, but I think it is valuable. Flat high traffic pitches, such as run-ins, run-outs, and cat tracks often develop washboard. That is a rhythmic series of ridges perpendicular to the travel direction.

Treat them as an opportunity . Ski straight over them, absorbing each ridge and extending afterwards. No turns! So no turns to think about. If you get going too fast, brake a lot and then resume.

I find that above a certain speed, conscious control isn't fast enough and I have to keep loose knees and let it happen. That's why mileage is so important . You have to develop that subconscious subroutine/reflex, and let your conscious mind worry about the big picture.

True, but the difficulty for most skiers is to learn how to change edges when most flexed. And the sad reality is that because they’ve been coached to flex while keeping their hips over their heels, they don’t have access to femur rotation that tips the lower leg. So,while learning how to ski with supple legs is really important for absorbing terrain unevenness, the key move is to be able to tip the skis when most flexed.

And for skiing big terrain and big bumps, we are talking about both legs flexed quite signicantly. Watch Guy’s edge changes in the rollers — practice that and if you don’t have rollers, practice it on the groomed.

 

[mdf]

True, but the difficulty for most skiers is to learn how to change edges when most flexed. And the sad reality is that because they’ve been coached to flex while keeping their hips over their heels, they don’t have access to femur rotation that tips the lower leg. So,while learning how to ski with supple legs is really important for absorbing terrain unevenness, the key move is to be able to tip the skis when most flexed.

And for skiing big terrain and big bumps, we are talking about both legs flexed quite signicantly. Watch Guy’s edge changes in the rollers — practice that and if you don’t have rollers, practice it on the groomed.

Oh, I agree those things are important. Think of it as a drill for the complementary skills

 

[jack97]

You are understanding the situation perfectly.

Coach says "The absorption comes form the heel piece under the skier's bum"

Coach says "We never want the heel peice to here at the skier's hamstring 'cause now we're seeing the tips up, kind of weird"

Coach then demos:

demos....demos... well, apparently he demos what not to do.

What did the GOAT do?

What about Nelson?

And Donna?

IMO, its somewhat disingenuous to not show the pull back move which brings the heel under the bum. BTW, I'm not a fan of the reverse bicycle approach but would never purposely try to misrepresent things.

 

[geepers]

IMO, its somewhat disingenuous to not show the pull back move which brings the heel under the bum. BTW, I'm not a fan of the reverse bicycle approach but would never purposely try to misrepresent things.

The vid is less than optimal in that the demo at the end does not fit the explanation of the moves that coach is recommending. And that's probably fine given the intended audience is U10 and I don't imagine they have a lot of time for scripting/retakes.

Maybe this would have been a better vid where there are many examples of the feet coming under the glutes on absorption. Although it seems to me that the rotation and a small amount of lateral displacement into the bump and subsequent 'rebound' play a significant role.

 

[jack97]

The vid is less than optimal in that the demo at the end does not fit the explanation of the moves that coach is recommending. And that's probably fine given the intended audience is U10 and I don't imagine they have a lot of time for scripting/retakes.

I agree the audio of the vid does not describe it well and it could have been edited out about the pull back. I know Aldighieri use to coach with Chuck Martin and is aware of this pull back concept.

 

[Coach13]

Maybe it should be a different topic but I’d love to see a recommended skill progression/path for novice (including never-evers) bump skiers to follow in the learning process.

 

[Plai]

Maybe it should be a different topic but I’d love to see a recommended skill progression/path for novice (including never-evers) bump skiers to follow in the learning process.

Yeah, I was just dreaming of lesson plans like:
Prerequisite: Pivot slips, falling leaf, flat 360, outside leg softening - things generally useful on groomers too.
Novice: line choices, absorption
Intermediate: dolphin turns (I'm also starting to hate "reverse bycicle")
Advanced: fitness and nutrition
Other?

Obviously, this is incomplete.

 

[KingGrump]

@James must be pretty good at crystal ball polishing. He predicted the path this thread has taken back around Mother's Day.

We can now have a 12 pg thread on how "that's not really bump skiing".

We are still several pages short.

 

[jack97]

Yeah, I was just dreaming of lesson plans like:
......
Intermediate: dolphin turns
.....

I have never seen nor heard of any mogul coach recommend dolphin turns for the bumps. Only PSIA types do this to show it can be done in the flats and in some bump section.

 

[SSSdave]

I admittedly have never had technical conversations with instructors for much of anything. I use what I think may be that term at times that is more a 2 ski platform very similar to what those on monoskis are forced to do skiing bumps. It requires a well developed set of back muscles from skiing a lot of mogul in a Gumby motion especially fun sometimes in medium sized soft packed powder bumps.

 

[Mike King]

I have never seen nor heard of any mogul coach recommend dolphin turns for the bumps. Only PSIA types do this to show it can be done in the flats and in some bump section.

Well, there's no doubt that some ski instructors think dolphin turns are useful for bump skiing, but where I really saw the application of this drill was from Nadine Gruenenfelder, who is a member of the Swiss Demo Team. She used the drill to help folk explore manipulation of fore/aft balance in dynamic short turns. Specifically, to be able to move forward with the skis as they accelerate into the fall line, to become aligned with the ski in the shaping, and to move aft to deal with the deceleration of the ski in the finish of the turn.

Personally, I think being able to manipulate fore/aft pressure is a very important skill to have, but would think of not only the process of trying to stay with the skis, but also to be able to recover for when things go awry.

Mike

 

[Plai]

Thanks @tball and @LiquidFeet

Was just rereading the thread and rediscovered that both of you referenced


The fall line is something that I want to get to and this video is great.

And yes, as many have observed, this method may not work for all (if not most) situations, but it'll be another tool in the toolbox.
I can't image them working for for the bumps I skied recently, but that may be a failing on my part.

 

[cosmoliu]

^^^ The turns at 1:31-1:38 sure look dolphin-y to me.

 

[jack97]

Well, there's no doubt that some ski instructors think dolphin turns are useful for bump skiing, but where I really saw the application of this drill was from Nadine Gruenenfelder, who is a member of the Swiss Demo Team. She used the drill to help folk explore manipulation of fore/aft balance in dynamic short turns. Specifically, to be able to move forward with the skis as they accelerate into the fall line, to become aligned with the ski in the shaping, and to move aft to deal with the deceleration of the ski in the finish of the turn.

Personally, I think being able to manipulate fore/aft pressure is a very important skill to have, but would think of not only the process of trying to stay with the skis, but also to be able to recover for when things go awry.

Mike

^^^ The turns at 1:31-1:38 sure look dolphin-y to me.

Funny, I was thinking about an aggressive tip drive drill as shown in the vid as a means for recovery. As for the dolphiny look, there's a big difference in using the upcoming bump as a launch to get some air versus loading the tail to jet out. IMO, aspiring bumpers should be focus on getting center and forward not going aft.

Again, show me a vid where a mogul coach is recommending this in the flats or loading the tail in general.

 

[Mike King]

Funny, I was thinking about an aggressive tip drive drill as shown in the vid as a means for recovery. As for the dolphiny look, there's a big difference in using the upcoming bump as a launch to get some air versus loading the tail to jet out. IMO, aspiring bumpers should be focus on getting center and forward not going aft.

Again, show me a vid where a mogul coach is recommending this in the flats or loading the tail in general.

I generally agree with you, but I’m not sure there are many, if any, ski instructors who are coaching load the tails in mogul skiing either. It seems to me that a lot of the problem is that folks in these mogul discussions talk past one another without isolating where there is a fundamental disagreement.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

After I got my L3, I realized that I kinda sucked at bumps. I felt like I sort of was lucky to get away with my bump skiing at the exam. So I decided to get better at bump skiing. Mostly by skiing a lot of bumps. I wanted a style that would be "sustainable" by that I mean that I wanted to be able to ski 2000 vertical feet of bumps without stopping and I wanted to be able to do it multiple runs in succession. I've posted this video before. I'm sure it;s not perfect, but you can see what I am doing here. I'm no superstar athletically, but with good technique and some willpower when the legs start to burn I can have some sustainable fun in the moguls.


PS - I'm running 2" shorter poles now so the pole plant isn't so jerky.

PPS - That's Mr. "Jackrabbit on cocaine" that I pass, then stop to film at 4:30, then pass again.

 

[Plai]

Funny, I was thinking about an aggressive tip drive drill as shown in the vid as a means for recovery. As for the dolphiny look, there's a big difference in using the upcoming bump as a launch to get some air versus loading the tail to jet out. IMO, aspiring bumpers should be focus on getting center and forward not going aft.

Again, show me a vid where a mogul coach is recommending this in the flats or loading the tail in general.

Before the tip dive at the top of the bump, what should the skier do with feet as the bump approaches? Just ride up, engage core to stay upright and absorb with knees? Shoot the feet forward and absorb? Something else?

 

[Coach13]

After I got my L3, I realized that I kinda sucked at bumps. I felt like I sort of was lucky to get away with my bump skiing at the exam. So I decided to get better at bump skiing. Mostly by skiing a lot of bumps. I wanted a style that would be "sustainable" by that I mean that I wanted to be able to ski 2000 vertical feet of bumps without stopping and I wanted to be able to do it multiple runs in succession. I've posted this video before. I'm sure it;s not perfect, but you can see what I am doing here. I'm no superstar athletically, but with good technique and some willpower when the legs start to burn I can have some sustainable fun in the moguls.


PS - I'm running 2" shorter poles now so the pole plant isn't so jerky.

PPS - That's Mr. "Jackrabbit on cocaine" that I pass, then stop to film at 4:30, then pass again.

That’s some pretty smooth skiing on your part..,and the rabbit’s too!

 

[jack97]

It seems to me that a lot of the problem is that folks in these mogul discussions talk past one another without isolating where there is a fundamental disagreement.

Its the "double down" effect...... why spend the time and energy to understand the other side when it less time consuming to just agree to disagree. Sad but true.

 

[Noodler]

Thanks @tball and @LiquidFeet

Was just rereading the thread and rediscovered that both of you referenced


The fall line is something that I want to get to and this video is great.

And yes, as many have observed, this method may not work for all (if not most) situations, but it'll be another tool in the toolbox.
I can't image them working for for the bumps I skied recently, but that may be a failing on my part.

This video is a good example of one of the major differentiators in mogul technique that really hasn't been called out in this thread. That is the use of the "pivot and slam" (relying highly on A&E to get most of the job done) versus a more edged/carved approach that actually uses the ski sidecut). Watch the Reilly mogul videos to see someone who is really turning in the moguls versus pivoting a flat ski. The other 2 PMTS videos I posted are also about as far away from pivot and slam as you can get.

I spent 25 years perfecting my pivot and slam. I now have 2 bad knees to show for it. It's taken a lot of work to get away from using that technique when I get into tougher steeper moguls; it's my fall back, but gets me into trouble now at my age because it's so reliant on A&E for the speed control.

Learn how to use your edges in the moguls - it's more sustainable.