Recreational Sustainable Mogul style?

[geepers]

If, on the other hand, you are levered against the front of the boot at the time of absorption, your are most likely going to get pitched even more forward and, possibly, double eject. I might have recently done so.

What's the worst sound in skiing?

Click-click.

 

[Noodler]

Just to check if I understand... Is what you're saying similar to the "softening" described in this video?

Finally had a chance to watch this video you posted. Although he describes the "softening" correctly as a flex to release, his own skiing does not exhibit a correct flex to release. He still has a pronounced up move. Watch his stance leg (the downhill leg), does it get shorter in transition? Or is he just pushing off from the uphill ski? I liked his description, but he's not "skiing the talk".

Take a look at these (note that these are drills/steps for developing your mogul skiing):

 

[peterm]

I've responded to this many times in other threads. I put a lot of effort into the explanation in the past. I'll try to keep it simple this time. The mogul skier pulls back the feet as far as physically possible to maintain constant shin pressure. When the tips point up, the feet must be further in front of the skier even with the same shin pressure. It's physically impossible to have it any other way by geometry and range of motion. So, when a mogul trough turns up hill, you will see mogul skiers with their feet further in front. This is the bicycle move. As long as the skier constantly pulls back their feet as far as they can go while the slope changes under the skier, you'll see the bicycle move. This is in contrast to some that propose that you must actively push your feet forward and open your ankles. Modern mogul technique prescribes pulling the feet back to give constant shin pressure when speed control is necessary. So, when the mogul coach talks about the technique of pulling the feet back, he's describing as far as it will go while staying balanced. If the trough points down the hill, the result will look the same as his demo. Regardless, the primary concern for the intention and result is to achieve the position shown in the video just after crest on the backside when the slope is pointing down. Other types of skiers will achieve open ankles at this point which is in opposition to modern mogul technique.

Yes, what you're saying about the bicycle move makes better sense. I was just making a comment about something the coach said in the video that seemed incorrect or at best an oversimplification. Saying "never do X" when in fact X is a key part of the technique seemed noteworthy enough to call out.

 

[Plai]

Finally had a chance to watch this video you posted. Although he describes the "softening" correctly as a flex to release, his own skiing does not exhibit a correct flex to release. He still has a pronounced up move. Watch his stance leg (the downhill leg), does it get shorter in transition? Or is he just pushing off from the uphill ski? I liked his description, but he's not "skiing the talk".

Take a look at these (note that these are drills/steps for developing your mogul skiing):

Thanks @Noodler for the videos and explanations.

A lot of the video focuses on leg extensions and absorption.
I sometimes find myself with a 2-3 ft drop in the trough and than at the next front side that is 1-2 ft high.
1. I don't have enough leg to extend to maintain upper body level, and
2. I don't have enough leg bend to absorb the next face without riding up and whatever.
How would the above technique be adapted to these larger moguls and troughs?

I can see how the softening of the downhill leg to release conserves momentum. I really like the technique with groomers. Is there and equivalent analog for softer/deeper snow/cut up situations? I often am unable to release in 2-4 inches of snow with this technique.

 

[Mike King]

Finally had a chance to watch this video you posted. Although he describes the "softening" correctly as a flex to release, his own skiing does not exhibit a correct flex to release. He still has a pronounced up move. Watch his stance leg (the downhill leg), does it get shorter in transition? Or is he just pushing off from the uphill ski? I liked his description, but he's not "skiing the talk".

Take a look at these (note that these are drills/steps for developing your mogul skiing):

Frankly those videos show the problems of being levered off of the front of the boot. Personally, this is much cleaner and more dynamic bump skiing.

 

[tball]

@tball Thanks for posting the video and expressing the opinion. Got a breakdown of the techniques needed to accomplish this style?!? Otherwise, this is another "do as I do, but I can't tell you how video".

I'm happy to provide suggestions if they are welcome. As the OP, are you open to discussing advanced/expert recreational and sustainable mogul skiing, or is this thread more for beginner and intermediate mogul skiing as some seem to believe?

 

[Mike King]

And here's what i consider to be the most important aspect of all -- flexion and extension.

 

[Mike King]

And part 2

 

[dbostedo]

@Plai - The video @Mike King posted (commented below) shows really well what @Noodler was getting at, and what I tried to describe in more detail below... look at the turn at 1:46 in the video... knees coming up to the chest, just like you're flexing in bumps.

...So my advice is to pretend you're on a mogul run when skiing a groomer, picture an imaginary mogul, and flex to absorb it while releasing your edges.

...with even more intentional flexing of the downhill leg when starting into the transition. You want to have both legs well flexed as you move through transition into the new turn - like you are absorbing a bump with your knees getting closer to your chest.

And here's what i consider to be the most important aspect of all -- flexion and extension.

 

[Plai]

As the OP, are you open to discussing advanced/expert recreational and sustainable mogul skiing, or is this thread more for beginner and intermediate mogul skiing as some seem to believe?

Thanks for asking the question. I should have considered and established that in the OP.

Let's assume level 7-8 groomer competency: working knowledge of linked turns with pole plants, strong interest in going off-piste, enough upper lower separation, good fundamental edging skills, ability to drift. So, in a word, "Yes, please take it to the next level."

Let's focus on the habits of groomers get us "stuck" in the soft and bumps.

[Personally, I've seen most of the videos already mentioned and am able to survive much of the day in the fields. But as mentioned, there are gaps in my learning, the reverse bicycle and how to use the buddy bump well. My hope is that this thread could be a primer as well as a reminder. Well, enough about me.]

 

[Mike King]

@Plai - The video @Mike King posted (commented below) shows really well what @Noodler was getting at, and what I tried to describe in more detail below... look at the turn at 1:46 in the video... knees coming up to the chest, just like you're flexing in bumps.

For clarity's sake, the terrain pushes the feet up; the body is not really dropped down. That is, absorption is from the ground up, not from the top down.

Mike

 

[Plai]

knees coming up to the chest, just like you're flexing in bumps

My point was that sometimes we need to ride the bump up and than absorb. I was hoping to hear it from others before having to state it.

 

[Mike King]

Thanks for asking the question. I should have considered and established that in the OP.

Let's assume level 7-8 groomer competency: working knowledge of linked turns with pole plants, strong interest in going off-piste, enough upper lower separation, good fundamental edging skills, ability to drift. So, in a word, "Yes, please take it to the next level."

Let's focus on the habits of groomers get us "stuck" in the soft and bumps.

[Personally, I've seen most of the videos already mentioned and am able to survive much of the day in the fields. But as mentioned, there are gaps in my learning, the reverse bicycle and how to use the buddy bump well. My hope is that this thread could be a primer as well as a reminder. Well, enough about me.]

So, one of the first things to get rid of is that your feet reach to the side. In high performance groomer skiing, you are allowing the feet to travel out and establish edge early and, probably, high. In off-piste skiing, the reach with the feet is down the hill with the absorption bringing the feet back under the body. You want to stay more on top of your feet. Forget the infinity move, even though it is slight present. You don't want or need a lot of edge -- the steepness of the hill or the bump will provide it.

Mike

 

[Rod9301]

Hi Rod9301,

Regarding your first sentence: Though it might be obvious to you, this is not universally understood. I submit: https://www.pugski.com/forums/ski-school.6/

As to the second sentence: It is not a given that the feet must be pulled back. While an accomplished skier certainly has the skills to do so when necessary, it is not always necessary and particularly in moguls very often not.

Sorry, but I'm not sure i understand what you're saying.

Is your thought that the feet can be under your butt as you absorb the bump ( front?)?

 

[Rod9301]

Thanks @Noodler for the videos and explanations.

A lot of the video focuses on leg extensions and absorption.
I sometimes find myself with a 2-3 ft drop in the trough and than at the next front side that is 1-2 ft high.
1. I don't have enough leg to extend to maintain upper body level, and
2. I don't have enough leg bend to absorb the next face without riding up and whatever.
How would the above technique be adapted to these larger moguls and troughs?

I can see how the softening of the downhill leg to release conserves momentum. I really like the technique with groomers. Is there and equivalent analog for softer/deeper snow/cut up situations? I often am unable to release in 2-4 inches of snow with this technique.

Yes, you can and should flex to release in powder, a few inches or a few feet.

 

[geepers]

My point was that sometimes we need to ride the bump up and than absorb. I was hoping to hear it from others before having to state it.

Same thing that happens to a car with suspension if it hits a bump. If the suspension absorbs the bump without reaching the limit of travel no problem. If the suspension bottoms out then the body of the car will be accelerated upwards - if it is travelling fast enough it will become airborne (or break something).

As a skier you will find the same physics applies. If you cannot absorb the bump your whole body will move up following the profile of the bump. If you are travelling fast enough you may:
1. Collapse in a heap if you cannot support the forces.
2. Do a face plant or eject from your skis if the bump profile is step enough to slow your feet whilst your CoM continues downhill
3. Become airborne and have to deal with the situation downhill of the bump.

Some mogul skiers use that last one on an earlier bump (under-absorb) to jump over a deep trough or an abrupt bump face.

Alternatives are:
1. Adjust your line to avoid the situation or use the face as a berm
2. Ski slower or put in a speed check move prior to the situation - such as: a quick sideways move or a dbl sideways move; dragging one ski sideways (comp bump skiers sometimes do that preparing for a jump). Both assume there's space to do these moves.
3. Feet forward move - it may give you a little more ability to resist the slowing of the feet. But be ready to pull the feet back at the top of the bump or you'll be sitting on your a$$.

1 and 2 require that you keep looking ahead and not just at the bump you are already on.

I suppose another alternative is to ski one of those resorts where these types of terrain features don't occur 'cause apparently everybody skis just so and the bumps are nicely groomed to play sweet. Unfortunately, doesn't seem to happen at any of the resorts where I ski. Click-click.

 

[tball]

To the contrary, I really like zipper line bump skiing. It is really nice when done well. Both in form and function. Very much like a good stiletto. Feels great in the hand and opens with very little effort. Honed to a keen edge. A thing of beauty. Fantastic for shanking people. I have a few in my knife drawer. Great to play with. Haven’t shank anyone… yet.

For most folks out there. Most aren’t thinking about shanking the next guy. They are more into camping and/or prepping the dinner. For that a multi-tool or a good 8” chef knife would serve them better.

I get the MJ contingent also. I spent a month there back in 2016. Perfect confluence of pitch and snow condition to produce some of the best zipper-line-able bumps anywhere. Unfortunately, most other ski areas are not blessed in a similar fashion.

I am in steep terrain a lot. Most of the bumps I find myself in are rather irregular bumps. Often time visibility is iffy, like in W/B. A longer, rounder line generally served me well. It also takes very little effort. Just getting down is usually exciting enough for me.

BTW, I have heard my share of complaints about Taos bumps. So it’s not really news to me. They are definitely not zipper line. I just ski them as they come. Nothing really to OCD about.

Most of the so called “green line” & “blue line” skiers just wanted to wander into the bumps with their existing skill set. Make it to the bottom without being beaten up. Truth to be told, most can’t link short turns on the groom. There is much needed in terms of technical. Generally, they really don’t want to spend an inordinate amount of time working on additional technique. They get discourage rather easily. They are looking for some kind of result right now with the minimum effort. There is often a very high anxiety/fear factor involved also.

For me in a situation like the above, the quickest way to yield results is to adjust their line. Allow the terrain and gravity to help their descent. It may not be the prettiest but it yields good results with what I have to work with. I have found the if I can get them to control their fear/anxiety, they are much more able to try different technique/tactics.

A multi-tool is fine for most first time camper.

It is the beginning of a journey, not the end.
The first step of many… hopefully.

No doubt a wider line is much more approachable, especially in steeper bumps. All bumps are made differently, and they all require different tactics.

What works well at Taos probably doesn't work well in the bumps most folks come across, since Taos is one of the steepest mountains around. The bumps in most of Colorado are more like Mary Jane, just made by worse bump skiers.

On moderate terrain, I do think a more direct line in the bumps is great even for beginner bumpers. Take a blue run that hasn't been groomed for a couple of days, for example. Depending on the bumps it's not necessary to take a longer, rounder line there.

I think it's good advice to turn as frequently as you can in the bumps. Turn, turn, turn is what I've been telling my kids the last couple days on blue bump runs. Wherever they turn is great, the more turns the better.

For most folks, steep bumps will necessitate less frequent turns with a less direct line. Moderate bumps, on the other hand, are the opportunity for beginner bumpers to learn to ski a more direct line with more frequent turns.

 

[Plai]

I think the current big mystery (for me) here is the recovery. How to minimize it, or to find an optimal way to accomplish it. I have mentioned that the reverse bicycle move seems hard... I can't mentally break it down to practicable component parts to figure out how to practice in order to glue those parts together.

So, maybe another tact... Just work on for fore aft balance to improve recovery....
Probably going to try @HeluvaSkier fore aft shuffle with flappers move.

Coupled with JB's fore aft progression....

This should give me some distraction for a bit...

Another video that seems to describe the progression better...

 

[mdf]

nobody seems to talk about practicing absorption/extension without the complication of actually turning, but I think it is valuable. Flat high traffic pitches, such as run-ins, run-outs, and cat tracks often develop washboard. That is a rhythmic series of ridges perpendicular to the travel direction.

Treat them as an opportunity . Ski straight over them, absorbing each ridge and extending afterwards. No turns! So no turns to think about. If you get going too fast, brake a lot and then resume.

I find that above a certain speed, conscious control isn't fast enough and I have to keep loose knees and let it happen. That's why mileage is so important . You have to develop that subconscious subroutine/reflex, and let your conscious mind worry about the big picture.

 

[Plai]

nobody seems to talk about practicing absorption/extension without the complication of actually turning, but I think it is valuable. Flat high traffic pitches, such as run-ins, run-outs, and cat tracks often develop washboard. That is a rhythmic series of ridges perpendicular to the travel direction.

Treat them as an opportunity . Ski straight over them, absorbing each ridge and extending afterwards. No turns! So no turns to think about. If you get going too fast, brake a lot and then resume.

I find that above a certain speed, conscious control isn't fast enough and I have to keep loose knees and let it happen. That's why mileage is so important . You have to develop that subconscious subroutine/reflex, and let your conscious mind worry about the big picture.

Totally agree. I often use traverses to practice being "Gumby" for absorption and extensions or carved short turns, of course dependent on traffic conditions.