Recreational Sustainable Mogul style?

[skier]

Perfect. So the "back" part is just contraction of the hamstrings. Something like kicking one's glutes with ones heels?
Once this is done, the tips of the skis are down, the tails are up.

One more question on my mind... do you feel a "pause" and then a "fall" during the "pulling the feet back"?
I think of this moment as similar to the apex of a ball toss. That short moment should allow the upper body and head to get back forward of the feet (in combination with the "feet pullback".)

The upper body just moves in a stable line down the fall line with very little movement. So, the focus is all on the feet. If you ski in the trough, there's a lip at the end of the trough that pushes your skis up. This lip is basically the shoulder of the bump, and you have to absorb it. You can't let the lip push you too high, so you actively pull up your feet. As you pull up your feet, you're weightless. Then it's very easy to rotate the skis as the slope drops away from the tips. So, during that weightless moment, all in one motion, the feet are being pulled back, the skis are steered, knee angulation tips the skis until you load the inside edge of the outside ski tip again on the backside as shown in that still frame I captured according to Aldighieri's description. You want the ski to be rotated past the fall line before loading again. Then it's like carving with forward pressure. If you're happy with the speed, you just carve along the ski edge into the trough until you absorb the next bump. If you want more speed control, then you allow the tails to smear around on the backside as you carve with forward pressure until they slide into the trough. Once you're in the trough, there's no more smearing that can happen, so you have to get it all in on the backside.

In order to have the right "pause" and not necessarily "fall", but gradually regain pressure, you need just the right amount of absorption. That's where experience comes in. Too little, and you get tossed. Too much and all the work is coming from you, not the bump. Timing is critical.

 

[tball]

can you guys describe the mechanics of the "Pulling the feet back"?

I never think about pulling my feet back. I really don't think about movement patterns much, rather I ski bumps more by feel.

I believe with enough focused mileage the bumps will teach you how to ski them. Most folks just don't spend enough time in the bumps. They ski a bump run or two a day, wonder why they struggle, then generally avoid bumps.

What I focus on feeling while skiing bumps is pretty simple:

• Hands up and out in the correct position
• Shoulders square with the hill
• A solid pole plant for each turn
• Keep your skis on the snow and your edges engaged
• Turn, turn, turn

I think if you focus on keeping your skis on the snow and edges engaged you'll pull your feet back when necessary. You need to when you tip your skis down on the backside of a bump. If you don't, your edge won't be engaged. You can't control your speed without your skis in contact with the snow.

That's my simplistic way of thinking about it. Focus on those feelings and lots of mileage and you'll continue improving.

 

[Plai]

As you pull up your feet, you're weightless. Then it's very easy to rotate the skis as the slope drops away from the tips. So, during that weightless moment, all in one motion, the feet are being pulled back, the skis are steered, knee angulation tips the skis until you load the inside edge of the outside ski tip again on the backside as shown in that still frame I captured according to Aldighieri's description. You want the ski to be rotated past the fall line before loading again. Then it's like carving with forward pressure. If you're happy with the speed, you just carve along the ski edge into the trough until you absorb the next bump. If you want more speed control, then you allow the tails to smear around on the backside as you carve with forward pressure until they slide into the trough. Once you're in the trough, there's no more smearing that can happen, so you have to get it all in on the backside.

Nicely said. Your "weightless" was what I was trying to capture with "pause" and "fall". I like your expression better.
Thanks again.

 

[tball]

The importance of hands and pole plants can't be stressed enough, nor can one watch this video often enough:


The nice thing about focusing on hands is you can pretty easily see and feel when they are wrong and correct them.

 

[Noodler]

Nicely said. Your "weightless" was what I was trying to capture with "pause" and "fall". I like your expression better.
Thanks again.

I believe the "pause" you're referring to, is quite often described in mogul skiing as the "imaginary Velcro patch" at the high point of each turn (usually the shoulder or crest of the next mogul). The idea being is that if you're doing the movements correctly for good bump skiing, you will feel as if you are momentarily stuck on the top of the bump. This is the "pause".

 

[Noodler]

Since Epic is no more, my old posts on mogul skiing are also gone. @Plai - this list may be of use to you, but of course these are just mental keys, not necessarily the specific skills you need for good bump skiing.

My "mental keys" that I "keep with me" for every mogul run.

• You can't "steer" if your front wheels aren't on the ground - make sure the tips of your skis stay in contact with the snow - It’s amazing how much this one mental key keeps your speed in check.
• Maintain the same pressure on the snow through the front, crest, and backside of a mogul through effective absorption and extension (A&E). Do not break at the waist to absorb, absorb by pulling your heels to your butt
• Keep your feet under your body - instead of thinking about staying forward or not leaning back just think about keeping your feet below your hips - it's the key to staying out of the back seat.
• Imagine a patch of Velcro on the top of every bump, as your skis pass over the bump they "stick" while the CM continues to move through the turn - this is the same feeling as drawing your feet back under your body.
• Don't be concerned about the line - look 3-4 turns ahead and just take the bumps as they come (don't look down at your skis!) - for me this was my biggest stumbling block that I finally overcame. I was always standing at the top of the runs trying to plan every turn. Of course this is impossible if you actually plan on making more than 5 linked turns! The key skill that actually helped me break the habit was looking farther down the mountain while skiing AND being very deliberate in making my pole plants on every mogul crest and then driving my hand forward through the plant. Now I feel I can take on whatever the line brings me.
• Extension after absorption - make sure that while keeping the ski tips in contact with the snow you fully extend (both lower and upper body) after absorbing the bump. This ensures that you can (and are ready to) absorb the next bump. Otherwise your body position becomes increasingly compressed and your quads will eventually be fried.
• Keep your hands forward and close in - if you go wide with your plants you'll tend to drop your shoulder and your hip will go with it. Keep your arms "in the car".

Hope this helps...

 

[Rod9301]

Please, Geepers, listen to his words:

"So, it's very important to contract the hamstring and their bum to get that pull move underneath, now they are able to drive down the backside of the mogul, but without that you're here. You can't drive down the backside of the mogul. You're working in this plane you're backseat, no Bueno on that ever."

He's showing the position for driving down the backside. He's describing how you need to drive down the backside.

Here he is, driving down the backside.

View attachment 63589

Here's the section 8 guy driving down the backside:

View attachment 63590

So, the key phrase is driving down the backside. When you absorb, you pull the feet back to drive down the backside with that forward position. It's physically impossible to get into that position driving up the frontside, which is why he's saying drive down the backside. In a comp line, you do not want to get backseat like Aldighieri describes. There's no need to discuss the section 8 skier, it's only to show the contrast between the feet in front while driving down the backside vs. the feet behind you while driving down the backside.

So, to summarize, he's talking about driving down the backside.

driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.

Got it yet? Nope, still arguing, ok let's drive it home a little more:

driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.

How about now? Still want to parse words?

driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.driving down the backside.

You want to be pulled back driving down the backside, never here driving down the backside, because that's backseat and backseat driving down the backside is no good for tight lines. Aldighieri never is backseat driving down the backside. Still don't get it? What is it going to take?

driving down the backside
driving down the backside
driving down the backside driving down the backside. Ok I give up. If you don't get it now, you'll never get it.

Why do you care so much if he gets it?

 

[skier]

Why do you care so much if he gets it?

I don't care if he gets it. I care if you get it. If you get it, then the conversation can progress for mutual learning and entertainment. If he keeps you from getting it, then we're stuck, and it's boring and unproductive just arguing stupid things like the exact meaning of words. (You, plural)

 

[geepers]

Please, Geepers, listen to his words:

"So, it's very important to contract the hamstring and their bum to get that pull move underneath, now they are able to drive down the backside of the mogul, but without that you're here. You can't drive down the backside of the mogul. You're working in this plane you're backseat, no Bueno on that ever."

He's showing the position for driving down the backside. He's describing how you need to drive down the backside.

Here he is, driving down the backside.

View attachment 63589

Here's the section 8 guy driving down the backside:

View attachment 63590

So, the key phrase is driving down the backside. When you absorb, you pull the feet back to drive down the backside with that forward position. It's physically impossible to get into that position driving up the frontside, which is why he's saying drive down the backside. In a comp line, you do not want to get backseat like Aldighieri describes. There's no need to discuss the section 8 skier, it's only to show the contrast between the feet in front while driving down the backside vs. the feet behind you while driving down the backside.

So, to summarize, he's talking about driving down the backside.

driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.

Got it yet? Nope, still arguing, ok let's drive it home a little more:

driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.driving down the backside.

How about now? Still want to parse words?

driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.
driving down the backside.driving down the backside.

You want to be pulled back driving down the backside, never here driving down the backside, because that's backseat and backseat driving down the backside is no good for tight lines. Aldighieri never is backseat driving down the backside. Still don't get it? What is it going to take?

driving down the backside
driving down the backside
driving down the backside driving down the backside. Ok I give up. If you don't get it now, you'll never get it.

Dude, the bit you seem to be incapable of understanding/accepting is what he demos is a 2 step move.
1. Heels ahead of hips on the approach
2. And then the heels to glutes on the backside.
By all means continue to ignore the reality that it is a 2 step move.
2 step move
2 step move
2 step move
2 step move
2 step move



As for your Section 8 snapshot... here's the vid of that move.


He does a great job dealing with the trough above, points his tips down on the backside and lands perfectly balanced on the berm of the downhill bump. You take one snapshot mid-move and claim there's something wrong. No there is not - it was a nice piece of bump skiing where that skier managed the forces for his intended line very well and successfully demonstrated exactly what he'd been discussing.

This snapshoting out of context is a tactic you use. In a thread on carving without rotary you snapshot the one turn in the sequence where there skier uses rotary because he's coming to a stop and claim look, look rotary.

 

[geepers]

In practice it's all one fluid motion, pull the feet up, back, rotate the skis, and tip the skis blended in with the carve/smear at the bottom of the turn.

Yep, almost like, like, like.... backward pedalling a bicycle!

 

[geepers]

[
One more question on my mind... do you feel a "pause" and then a "fall" during the "pulling the feet back"?
I think of this moment as similar to the apex of a ball toss. That short moment should allow the upper body and head to get back forward of the feet (in combination with the "feet pullback".)

It depends on the bump profile. See animation from 2:50 in this vid.

 

[jack97]

Dude, the bit you seem to be incapable of understanding/accepting is what he demos is a 2 step move.
1. Heels ahead of hips on the approach
2. And then the heels to glutes on the backside.
By all means continue to ignore the reality that it is a 2 step move.
2 step move
2 step move
2 step move
2 step move
2 step move



.

IMO, your beating a dead horse, the vid clearly states the heel under the bum on the back side. Again, you're being disingenuous or unobservant.

 

[HardDaysNight]

One mogul coach explained it to me that he doesn't even think of it as extension. All he thinks is that he falls on his knees (cuff of the boot). Falling on the knees is part one of extension. It straightens the hips, but it's done weightless, so it takes little effort. Then part two of extension happens slightly later as the legs straighten naturally by skiing across a flattening slope also with no effort.

This is one of the more useful and accurate descriptions that might actually resonate with someone looking for a new way of thinking about a movement that many find very difficult.

 

[dbostedo]

IMO, your beating a dead horse, the vid clearly states the heel under the bum on the back side. Again, you're being disingenuous or unobservant.

Ah... good point... I also didn't catch the last bit where he says "... then you're able to drive down the backside of the mogul".

He certainly didn't introduce it that way... he just said "... when you're absorbing..." and as someone who doesn't know mogul skiing it wasn't at all clear he was talking about the backside at the start.

 

[skier]

Ah... good point... I also didn't catch the last bit where he says "... then you're able to drive down the backside of the mogul".

He certainly didn't introduce it that way... he just said "... when you're absorbing..." and as someone who doesn't know mogul skiing it wasn't at all clear he was talking about the backside at the start.

It comes with absorption. You can pull back your feet while absorbing to end up in that position early driving down the backside. Or you can absorb knees to chest without pulling back the feet, and you won't end up in that position driving down the backside. If you wait until you're on the backside to start pulling back the feet, it can be too late. Moseley talks about a prejump in order not to be late.

That same mogul coach also told me that he'll take a line further up on the front side of the mogul, so that he doesn't get as far back, so that it's easier to get forward on the backside. When you go in the trough, there can be a very large lip at the end. The more the ski tips have to point up to get over the lip, the more the skis have to be in front of the body, and thus the more work to pull them back.

 

[WynnDuffy]

I read the first half of this thread (up to the pissing match) and then the last page.

I wonder if I’m missing something, but although I’ve watched the Bumps for Boomers videos, I’ve never actually seen anyway in the real world take the blue line or berm line on a mogul trail, except maybe to fill in a gap on an irregular line.

Now that we’re into slush bump season the eastern mountains have their token mogul trail or two open, pretty much everyone who isn’t traversing their way down is doing the exact same rut line. Some people are faster smoother and more direct than others. I think the women and old men look particularly smooth. But everyone is on the same line. On slush days it’s easy to tell since you look for for the whiter freshly skied slush.

Are these slush bumpers all comp mogul skiers or ex comp mogul skiers? And if so, then comp mogul skiing leads to real world bump skills. If not, then skiing a rut line is accessible for regular skiers. Or as I asked in the beginning, maybe I’m missing something obvious?

 

[jack97]

Are these slush bumpers all comp mogul skiers or ex comp mogul skiers?

Short answer, no. I've seen them ski on packed powder to hard granular.

 

[Josh Matta]

I purposely make the roundest lines possible to mess with pivot slammers. You can ask @Guy in Shorts as well I am incapable of skiing zipper line.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

I purposely make the roundest lines possible to mess with pivot slammers. You can ask @Guy in Shorts as well I am incapable of skiing zipper line.

I would say you are very capable of skiing just about any line you chose. Really weren't any zipper lines that I could find on our river day. Very easy to ski the round line in the soft snow that we had. Speed control not really an issue. You are on the short list of skiers that I need to follow if I ever hope to get better.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Below from the bumpbusters link in the other thread. When I'm in a recreational sustainable mood I do something similar, making a quick pivot or two on the flat top, swoop down and absorb the next mogul, quick turn, and so on. You can also shift into the next gear if you want to get more aggressive, or shift back down to cruising speed if needed. Maybe a skidded turn followed by a carve on a steep icy spot, then back to to flat toppin'.

Tip 14 - If you study mogul terrain, you realize that all moguls have flat tops (think of the flat top as a green run, a place to be balanced enabling us to turn our feet). A place to finish our turns and start new ones. And a mogul run consists on a series of flat tops, much like a staircase, which you can use to walk down the mountain. Even more to your advantage, the tops of most moguls have piles of powder on them, which represent friction, which will slow you down. This is the place you want to finish the turn gently up the hill and start the next turn by moving down the hill and turning the feet in balance. So lets recap: Flat green run mogul tops with friction in the form of a staircase going down the hill. If you turn on the tops of the moguls, drift or butter with a soft edge from one mogul top to the next, you can change the rules of the game. Your best strategy: turn on the mogul tops and stay out of the troughs. By buttering the sides of the moguls. Use this strategy turning a black or double-black mogul and powder run into a much more manageable, safe and fun experience