Recreational Sustainable Mogul style?

[François Pugh]

One way to think about it:
Many folk say skiing on groomed runs is easy compared to bump skiing. That's because the snow surface in the bumps goes up and down as you ski over it. If you lift your skis up when the snow goes up and push your skis down when the snow goes down, your skis won't know you are in the bumps, and it will be easy. Absorb the bump by pulling your feet up (or at the very least allowing the bump to push them up), after your clear the bump push your tips into the trough. Without absorption-extension, each bump launches you a bit (or a lot) into the air. There is very little speed control in the air at slow speeds.

Ah but the angle of the slope also changes front front to back of bump. You need separate your ability to tip your skis to whatever angle is most appropriate for the instant at hand from your ability to pressure or not pressure the skis, and do both independently.

Worth repeating: beginners should go slow, very slow and speed up as desired, that's why you need a good short radius non-carved turn that constantly kills speed without you even thinking about killing speed.

 

[jack97]

watch the JLB GOAT vid by RM. He was free bumping in parts of the vid breakdown. The key is he used a variety of techniques and approaches to the bump.

BTW, wtf is sustainable mogul skiing?

 

[dbostedo]

BTW, wtf is sustainable mogul skiing?

Sustainable in this case, per the OP, is mogul skiing that can be done for an extended period of time, across multiple days... and presumably across all ages. So basically, lower impact, lower effort, than a brute force or zipper line where you're really banging the moguls with high impact and high effort.

 

[jack97]

Sustainable in this case, per the OP, is mogul skiing that can be done for an extended period of time, across multiple days... and presumably across all ages. So basically, lower impact, lower effort, than a brute force or zipper line where you're really banging the moguls with high impact and high effort.

IMO, that's more dependent on good techniques, fitness and mileage. The latter being the body becomes accustomed to the work being done. The "brute force" approach is throwing your body into the bumps without techniques and developed skills which is less dependent of line selection.

 

[Scruffy]

I think the current big mystery (for me) here is the recovery. How to minimize it, or to find an optimal way to accomplish it. I have mentioned that the reverse bicycle move seems hard... I can't mentally break it down to practicable component parts to figure out how to practice in order to glue those parts together.

If the reverse bicycle move is hard try this: think of pushing your skis into the hole as you crest each bump. The hole is the trough. The goal is to keep all of your ski bases in contact with all aspects of the the bump to control speed, and to be able in a fraction of a second use your ski bases/edges for micro adjustments and edging; can't do that if they are in the air or shoot out from under you forward.

Also play with edge setting to a stop at the top of each mogul. You do this by simultaneously edge set and deep flexation while maintaining proper body alignment ( separation, hands, etc...)

There are good flat terrain drills in the vid @jack97 posted ^^^ Step up bumps. Go to minute 50ish and see what the skier is doing. Good separation and stance, deep flex at bottom of turn to control speed. Keep in mind the videos posted are only one way to ski bumps; there are many and your job is to learn them all and blend them to fit your circumstances. Bag of tricks, use them all.

 

[Mike King]

What’s required for sustainable or for that matter any good bump skiing? It’s the 5th fundamental: regulate the magnitude of pressure created by the snow/ski interface. WTF does that mean? You have to learn how to move, most specifically how to fles and extend. And how to flex and extend properly. If you are flexing by trying to pull your feet underneath or behind you (hips over feet), you are not only limiting you range of motion, you are locking out your access to the other fundamentals such as, most importantly, leg rotation and tipping. Allow your hips to travel behind your heels the stall the feet to allow your body to catch up. This will keep you centered over the ski and allow you to engage the ski on the back side of the bump.

Mike

 

[skier]

What’s required for sustainable or for that matter any good bump skiing? It’s the 5th fundamental: regulate the magnitude of pressure created by the snow/ski interface. WTF does that mean? You have to learn how to move, most specifically how to fles and extend. And how to flex and extend properly. If you are flexing by trying to pull your feet underneath or behind you (hips over feet), you are not only limiting you range of motion, you are locking out your access to the other fundamentals such as, most importantly, leg rotation and tipping. Allow your hips to travel behind your heels the stall the feet to allow your body to catch up. This will keep you centered over the ski and allow you to engage the ski on the back side of the bump.

Mike

This directly goes against the advice of many of the best mogul skiers in the world. It's phenomenal what some of these skiers do in the bump fields. It's beautiful, objectively impressive, and super fun. So how can you directly dispute them like that? It boggles my mind. What, because you think they're hurting their knees? They aren't. Because you think their techniques only work at MJ? They don't. They work everywhere. I'm a troll for pointing this out? Some instructors get so upset when you don't think they know everything, but then folks come along and say things like this which defy all reason. Mogul skiers say to pull the feet back, and they ski awesomely everywhere without hurting anything.

You can ski with any style you want, but then when you come along and say not pulling the feet back is necessary for any good bump skiing, you destroy any credibility with anyone other than the choir. Then arguments just boil down to gang allegiance. How many instructors can band together here trying to insult people with a different approach? There's one troll in this thread, and he'd be banned anywhere except when he's pitching for the home team.

 

[François Pugh]

What’s required for sustainable or for that matter any good bump skiing? It’s the 5th fundamental: regulate the magnitude of pressure created by the snow/ski interface. WTF does that mean? You have to learn how to move, most specifically how to fles and extend. And how to flex and extend properly. If you are flexing by trying to pull your feet underneath or behind you (hips over feet), you are not only limiting you range of motion, you are locking out your access to the other fundamentals such as, most importantly, leg rotation and tipping. Allow your hips to travel behind your heels the stall the feet to allow your body to catch up. This will keep you centered over the ski and allow you to engage the ski on the back side of the bump.

Mike

If by that you mean not pulling the feet back to the extent that you are exerting too much tip pressure while doing so, instead of keeping the pressure on the skis uniform like if you were skiing short radius turns on a groomed run, then I agree.

Although at higher speeds bending the tip as you come into the bump is another method of speed control, albeit requiring more effort. Perhaps we need a different thread for more advanced or competitive mogul skiing.

 

[KingGrump]

Perhaps we need a different thread for more advanced or competitive mogul skiing.

Exactly.

Everyone of these how do I get started in low level bump skiing ends up the same. Zipper line is the purest form of bump skiing. I do it so YOU can do it too.
Like having Usain Bolts visit a day care full of toddlers.

Yeah, you too can run like me.

 

[tromano]

Doesn't everyone have to start somewhere? There are plenty of people out there aspiring to simply link turns in the moguls with out bailing out, the videos on page one of this thread offer something that is accessible to people.

 

[cosmoliu]

If the reverse bicycle move is hard try this: think of pushing your skis into the hole as you crest each bump. The hole is the trough. The goal is to keep all of your ski bases in contact with all aspects of the the bump to control speed, and to be able in a fraction of a second use your ski bases/edges for micro adjustments and edging; can't do that if they are in the air or shoot out from under you forward.

A quick mantra to summarize why it's so important to keep the tips on the snow: "Your money is in the tips of the skis. There's no money in the tails." (Ignoring, for the moment, rebound from the tails in the transition from carved turn to carved turn)

 

[KingGrump]

Doesn't everyone have to start somewhere? There are plenty of people out there aspiring to simply link turns in the moguls with out bailing out, the videos on page one of this thread offer something that is accessible to people.

It was staying pretty mellow and low key until the zipper liners start to chime in.
Give it time.

 

[tball]

Exactly.

Everyone of these how do I get started in low level bump skiing ends up the same. Zipper line is the purest form of bump skiing. I do it so YOU can do it too.
Like having Usain Bolts visit a day care full of toddlers.

View attachment 63313 View attachment 63314

Yeah, you too can run like me.

Anyone can ski the zipper line recreationally and sustainably if that's their goal. Like anything, it just takes work and dedication.

Dismissing the zipper line as a legitimate form of bump skiing does a huge disservice to skiers who want to learn to ski bumps. Find a new instructor if you are advised to always avoid the zipper line. Yes, it's more advanced, but why would you not want that tool in your toolbelt if you have advanced bump skiing as your eventual goal?

You don't need to be Usain Bolt to desire to run a 100-meter dash.

 

[Noodler]

For me it boils down to these choices:

1. Line - From very direct (zipper) to progressively more round
2. Tactics - Live in the troughs, hit the shoulders, or go over the crests

There's this assumption that skiing the zipper line is going to be more taxing, but that doesn't have to be the case if you're keeping your tips on the snow and edging/carving. You'll get the speed control with proper technique.

Any tactic that starts to incorporate the mogul shoulders and/or crests will require even more flexion. This implies a level of physical ability that many skiers may not have. Maybe if you ski it slow enough you won't have to flex as much, but I don't think that's the goal for most skiers who aspire to better bump skiing.

In short, you can ski the zipper without going at WC speed. It's sustainable.

 

[Plai]

Guys, all this back and forth about zipper line or not is futile.

I'm more than willing to approach these moves, but still need to baby step there. This thread is about the baby steps.

Please, please don't just make claims without showing how to get there. I keep asking for explanations and drills to get there. That should be the focus.

 

[Scruffy]

Most forms of skiing are efficient, and therefore sustainable, once you've mastered them. Perhaps I missed it, but I read every post in this thread, and I don't recall a post telling folks not to ski the zipper line. The OP wanted to know how others ski all day in the bumps. We really don't know what level of bump skier the OP is or isn't. People are trying to help with various techniques and tactics. Since we don't know the OPs level, all forms of bump skiing were thrown out as possibilities. There's been some overreaction and ax grinding, which doesn't help. We've already had threads, that dealt with high level bump skiing where we beat the dead horse vis a vis the zipper. Let's not rehash those threads here.

 

[Noodler]

Most forms of skiing are efficient, and therefore sustainable, once you've mastered them. Perhaps I missed it, but I read every post in this thread, and I don't recall a post telling folks not to ski the zipper line. The OP wanted to know how others ski all day in the bumps. We really don't know what level of bump skier the OP is or isn't. People are trying to help with various techniques and tactics. Since we don't know the OPs level, all forms of bump skiing were thrown out as possibilities. There's been some overreaction and ax grinding, which doesn't help. We've already had threads, that dealt with high level bump skiing where we beat the dead horse vis a vis the zipper. Let's not rehash those threads here.

Welcome to the Internet. Internet forums are all about...

 

[Noodler]

Guys, all this back and forth about zipper line or not is futile.

I'm more than willing to approach these moves, but still need to baby step there. This thread is about the baby steps.

Please, please don't just make claims without showing how to get there. I keep asking for explanations and drills to get there. That should be the focus.

OK - You want more "basic" advice on skiing moguls.

In my experience, the primary problem most skiers have in mogul skiing is that it requires exactly the opposite release tactic than they use in their everyday skiing on non-mogul slopes. Most skiers use an up-move to unweight their skis in order to release their edges. That's not going to work well in the moguls.

So my advice is to pretend you're on a mogul run when skiing a groomer, picture an imaginary mogul, and flex to absorb it while releasing your edges. This is harder than it sounds to do correctly and if you really want a great source on flexing to release then you might want to Google PMTS.

The beauty of knowing how to flex to release gives you a skill that works everywhere: groomers, bumps, crud, powder. The freedom of not needing to find a "platform" to push off of for your up-move is truly liberating.

 

[Plai]

OK - You want more "basic" advice on skiing moguls.

In my experience, the primary problem most skiers have in mogul skiing is that it requires exactly the opposite release tactic than they use in their everyday skiing on non-mogul slopes. Most skiers use an up-move to unweight their skis in order to release their edges. That's not going to work well in the moguls.

So my advice is to pretend you're on a mogul run when skiing a groomer, picture an imaginary mogul, and flex to absorb it while releasing your edges. This is harder than it sounds to do correctly and if you really want a great source on flexing to release then you might want to Google PMTS.

The beauty of knowing how to flex to release gives you a skill that works everywhere: groomers, bumps, crud, powder. The freedom of not needing to find a "platform" to push off of for your up-move is truly liberating.

Just to check if I understand... Is what you're saying similar to the "softening" described in this video?

 

[cosmoliu]

^^^ Wow! You're doing a lot of homework!

As to the zipper line- When I finally got my speed under control enough to {mostly} ski each bump as it presents itself, I have found that the "zipper" line is less taxing- To the extent that I only have to flex once to absorb in each turn cycle. That kind of represented another "AHA" moment in my bump progression. More vertical with less work... What's not to like?

So yes, I prefer the zipper line when I am able to follow it with my current level of technique. I enjoy the challenge to turn that quickly and I do an imaginary every time I just barely miss the chance to turn on that next bump down the fall line and have to move to the next one over.