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jack97

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Anyone can ski the zipper line recreationally and sustainably if that's their goal. Like anything, it just takes work and dedication.

Exactly! the definition of recreational and sustainable is flawed when it applies to skiing a zipper line /direct line in the bumps. Fitness has to be developed along with skills and techniques. I can easily argue that if one wants to ski the groomers all day for a week, a different set of fitness, techniques and skills applies as well.

As for the high impact of skiing a direct line, another mis-conception. Look at the first minute of DW free bumping it on "real world" bumps over at Killington. If one can get over the dogma of associating skiing direct with high impact, look at her techniques and how she approaches each bump. I see lots of A&E and no high impact. And note she doesn't always stay in the troughs but uses different part of the bump to maintain her rhythm while staying in a narrow corridor.

 

Seldomski

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@jack97 thanks for the video.

My takeaways from the video --
>Get forward/get in front of your skis
>Stay tall
>Narrow stance

You can see how much harder it is to ski the bumps if you don't do these things.
 

KingGrump

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Anyone can ski the zipper line recreationally and sustainably if that's their goal. Like anything, it just takes work and dedication.

Dismissing the zipper line as a legitimate form of bump skiing does a huge disservice to skiers who want to learn to ski bumps. Find a new instructor if you are advised to always avoid the zipper line. Yes, it's more advanced, but why would you not want that tool in your toolbelt if you have advanced bump skiing as your eventual goal?

You don't need to be Usain Bolt to desire to run a 100-meter dash.


To the contrary, I really like zipper line bump skiing. It is really nice when done well. Both in form and function. Very much like a good stiletto. Feels great in the hand and opens with very little effort. Honed to a keen edge. A thing of beauty. Fantastic for shanking people. I have a few in my knife drawer. Great to play with. Haven’t shank anyone… yet.

For most folks out there. Most aren’t thinking about shanking the next guy. They are more into camping and/or prepping the dinner. For that a multi-tool or a good 8” chef knife would serve them better.

I get the MJ contingent also. I spent a month there back in 2016. Perfect confluence of pitch and snow condition to produce some of the best zipper-line-able bumps anywhere. Unfortunately, most other ski areas are not blessed in a similar fashion.

I am in steep terrain a lot. Most of the bumps I find myself in are rather irregular bumps. Often time visibility is iffy, like in W/B. A longer, rounder line generally served me well. It also takes very little effort. Just getting down is usually exciting enough for me.

BTW, I have heard my share of complaints about Taos bumps. So it’s not really news to me. They are definitely not zipper line. I just ski them as they come. Nothing really to OCD about.

Most of the so called “green line” & “blue line” skiers just wanted to wander into the bumps with their existing skill set. Make it to the bottom without being beaten up. Truth to be told, most can’t link short turns on the groom. There is much needed in terms of technical. Generally, they really don’t want to spend an inordinate amount of time working on additional technique. They get discourage rather easily. They are looking for some kind of result right now with the minimum effort. There is often a very high anxiety/fear factor involved also.

For me in a situation like the above, the quickest way to yield results is to adjust their line. Allow the terrain and gravity to help their descent. It may not be the prettiest but it yields good results with what I have to work with. I have found the if I can get them to control their fear/anxiety, they are much more able to try different technique/tactics.

A multi-tool is fine for most first time camper.

It is the beginning of a journey, not the end.
The first step of many… hopefully.
 

dbostedo

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Is what you're saying similar to the "softening" described in this video?

Yes, seems like it to me. But with even more intentional flexing of the downhill leg when starting into the transition. You want to have both legs well flexed as you move through transition into the new turn - like you are absorbing a bump with your knees getting closer to your chest.
 

LiquidFeet

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Guys, all this back and forth about zipper line or not is futile.
I'm more than willing to approach these moves, but still need to baby step there. This thread is about the baby steps.
Please, please don't just make claims without showing how to get there. I keep asking for explanations and drills to get there. That should be the focus.

One way to start skiing bumps is to learn to pivot slip your way down.
Here's an animation of pivot slipping:
ff4a3ef2_md.gif

And here are some humans doing pivot slips on groomers:

In this video you'll see pivot slips being done in bumps at 0.16 - 0.20, and
from above 0.29 - 0.35, and there are more camera angles all the way through the section labelled Step 1.

The goal of pivot slipping down the bumps is to head straight down the fall line, or as straight as you can, as slowly as you can.

Do it as SLOWLY at first. It's harder to do it slowly, way slower than the person in that video, than to go fast.
Doing it slowly takes strong precision in movements, in edging, in rotating the skis, and in holding your line.
Start by slowing to a stall on each bump top, or even plant a pole and come to a complete stop.
Groomer practice is good and a necessary part of this.
But you'll find it easier to pivot on the top of a bump than on a groomer because your tips and tails will be in the air and not catching.
Your groomer practice doesn't have to be perfect before you venture into the bumps.

The glory of getting started this way is that you don't have to choose a line.
Just go down straight as you can. You'll easily be able to self-diagnose success and failure.
Failure is losing the line, or taking off in a runaway traverse, or going fast, or gaining speed.
Success is going slow, and slower, even glacially s-l-o-w, and holding the line.

Starting bumps this way requires bumps whose shapes are amenable to slide-slipping down their back side.
You can do this on ice bumps if the shapes are OK.

Speed up after you are very very good at going slow, and very very good at holding the line without your skis shooting you off the the side of your expected line. Look again at the Step Up video linked above at 0.21-0.26 for how it looks when you're getting pretty good at the exercise.

You can move from this way of crawling down the fall line to making round turns and taking a more meandering line with a bit of more speed if you like. Starting this way doesn't limit you to skiing the zipper line as you speed up. This is how I've learned to ski bumps, and I prefer the round line. Disclaimer: I started skiing late in life, and am not a zipper liner by any means.
 
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Chris V.

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There's actually plenty of helpful advice in this thread if one doesn't get obsessed with the video of high level athletes skiing at high speed. The common denominator is that there are a number of bump skiing styles that can be done slowly.
 

Mike King

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This directly goes against the advice of many of the best mogul skiers in the world. It's phenomenal what some of these skiers do in the bump fields. It's beautiful, objectively impressive, and super fun. So how can you directly dispute them like that? It boggles my mind. What, because you think they're hurting their knees? They aren't. Because you think their techniques only work at MJ? They don't. They work everywhere. I'm a troll for pointing this out? Some instructors get so upset when you don't think they know everything, but then folks come along and say things like this which defy all reason. Mogul skiers say to pull the feet back, and they ski awesomely everywhere without hurting anything.

You can ski with any style you want, but then when you come along and say not pulling the feet back is necessary for any good bump skiing, you destroy any credibility with anyone other than the choir. Then arguments just boil down to gang allegiance. How many instructors can band together here trying to insult people with a different approach? There's one troll in this thread, and he'd be banned anywhere except when he's pitching for the home team.
It’s a question of where do you pull the feet back. If you are absorbing the bump by pulling the feet back under or even behind the hips, you are losing access to the full range of motion in your hip, knee and ankle joint as well as your ability to tip the skis and access to femur rotation. Try it and see. Further, when I watch really great mogul skiers, they actually allow the feet to travel in front of the hip to provide maximum flexion in absorbing large bumps. They will then pull the feet back as they start downhill to be centered over the ski.

Try doing a squat by keeping your feet under your hips. Then try allowing the hips to travel behind the feet. Which one feels better? Which one is not going to have your trainer yelling at you because of improper form?

Biomechanics is biomechanics and physics is physics. I think you don’t have a correct view of what really is happening in good bump skiing.

Mike
 

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It’s a question of where do you pull the feet back. If you are absorbing the bump by pulling the feet back under or even behind the hips, you are losing access to the full range of motion in your hip, knee and ankle joint as well as your ability to tip the skis and access to femur rotation. Try it and see. Further, when I watch really great mogul skiers, they actually allow the feet to travel in front of the hip to provide maximum flexion in absorbing large bumps. They will then pull the feet back as they start downhill to be centered over the ski.

Try doing a squat by keeping your feet under your hips. Then try allowing the hips to travel behind the feet. Which one feels better? Which one is not going to have your trainer yelling at you because of improper form?

Biomechanics is biomechanics and physics is physics. I think you don’t have a correct view of what really is happening in good bump skiing.

Mike

So, I guess this guy must not have the correct view of good bump skiing either (3:00)?

 

Chris Geib

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Well, you need to accommodate BOTH the front side and back side of the bump.

If you go to 7:35-7:42 you will see where you and Mike are both correct. Feet move forward in relation to the CoM to accommodate the front side of the bump then the feet move back as the coach crests the mogul and contact is maintained on the back side.
 

Josh Matta

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Well, you need to accommodate BOTH the front side and back side of the bump.

If you go to 7:35-7:42 you will see where you and Mike are both correct. Feet move forward in relation to the CoM to accommodate the front side of the bump then the feet move back as the coach crests the mogul and contact is maintained on the back side.

you can ski with ever skiing on the backside of the bump....
 

Chris Geib

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I do not know what you are trying to express Josh?

The section of the video I referred to shows the coach from the side with the classic back pedal taking place.
 

Rod9301

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I do not know what you are trying to express Josh?

The section of the video I referred to shows the coach from the side with the classic back pedal taking place.
It's physically impossible not too have your butt behind the heels and the ski tips up when you again the bump. After you crest, of course, you pull the heels back
 

peterm

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So, I guess this guy must not have the correct view of good bump skiing either (3:00)?


I have no dog in this fight(?), but I had a quick look at the video. Couldn't help but notice that the explanation around the 3minute mark seemed to be contradicted by the skiing at the end. For example at around 3:10 the dude says "we never want the heel piece to be here, at the skier's hamstring". Fast forward to 7:35 or 7:37 or 7:39 and that seems to be exactly what's happening. The skier does get their tips back down onto the backside of the mogul shortly after that, but that didn't seem to be how he was explaining the technique. Maybe his explanation was over simplified, or maybe the skier wasn't doing it right, or maybe I'm completely misunderstanding?

Anyways, lots of great material in this thread.
 

geepers

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I have no dog in this fight(?), but I had a quick look at the video. Couldn't help but notice that the explanation around the 3minute mark seemed to be contradicted by the skiing at the end. For example at around 3:10 the dude says "we never want the heel piece to be here, at the skier's hamstring". Fast forward to 7:35 or 7:37 or 7:39 and that seems to be exactly what's happening. The skier does get their tips back down onto the backside of the mogul shortly after that, but that didn't seem to be how he was explaining the technique. Maybe his explanation was over simplified, or maybe the skier wasn't doing it right, or maybe I'm completely misunderstanding?

Anyways, lots of great material in this thread.

You are understanding the situation perfectly.

Coach says "The absorption comes form the heel piece under the skier's bum"
Absorption1.jpg


Coach says "We never want the heel peice to here at the skier's hamstring 'cause now we're seeing the tips up, kind of weird"

Absorption-No-No.jpg


Coach then demos:
Image1.jpg

Image2.jpg

Image3.jpg


demos....demos... well, apparently he demos what not to do.

What did the GOAT do?
Image5.jpg


What about Nelson?
Carmichael.jpg


And Donna?
Feet-First.jpg
 

Josh Matta

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It's physically impossible not too have your butt behind the heels and the ski tips up when you again the bump. After you crest, of course, you pull the heels back

go back to page one, I literally posted a video of me just skiing on uphill sides only
 

Chris Geib

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It's physically impossible not too have your butt behind the heels and the ski tips up when you again the bump. After you crest, of course, you pull the heels back

Hi Rod9301,

Regarding your first sentence: Though it might be obvious to you, this is not universally understood. I submit: https://www.pugski.com/forums/ski-school.6/

As to the second sentence: It is not a given that the feet must be pulled back. While an accomplished skier certainly has the skills to do so when necessary, it is not always necessary and particularly in moguls very often not.
 

skier

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I have no dog in this fight(?), but I had a quick look at the video. Couldn't help but notice that the explanation around the 3minute mark seemed to be contradicted by the skiing at the end. For example at around 3:10 the dude says "we never want the heel piece to be here, at the skier's hamstring". Fast forward to 7:35 or 7:37 or 7:39 and that seems to be exactly what's happening. The skier does get their tips back down onto the backside of the mogul shortly after that, but that didn't seem to be how he was explaining the technique. Maybe his explanation was over simplified, or maybe the skier wasn't doing it right, or maybe I'm completely misunderstanding?

Anyways, lots of great material in this thread.

I've responded to this many times in other threads. I put a lot of effort into the explanation in the past. I'll try to keep it simple this time. The mogul skier pulls back the feet as far as physically possible to maintain constant shin pressure. When the tips point up, the feet must be further in front of the skier even with the same shin pressure. It's physically impossible to have it any other way by geometry and range of motion. So, when a mogul trough turns up hill, you will see mogul skiers with their feet further in front. This is the bicycle move. As long as the skier constantly pulls back their feet as far as they can go while the slope changes under the skier, you'll see the bicycle move. This is in contrast to some that propose that you must actively push your feet forward and open your ankles. Modern mogul technique prescribes pulling the feet back to give constant shin pressure when speed control is necessary. So, when the mogul coach talks about the technique of pulling the feet back, he's describing as far as it will go while staying balanced. If the trough points down the hill, the result will look the same as his demo. Regardless, the primary concern for the intention and result is to achieve the position shown in the video just after crest on the backside when the slope is pointing down. Other types of skiers will achieve open ankles at this point which is in opposition to modern mogul technique.
 

Mike King

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Thanks @geepers. Its really simple -- when you have maximum flexion, you have the ability to have the CoM take a direct path down the fall line with access to all of the skill pools that are necessary for high level skiing. And when you have maximum flexion, followed by the extension down the backside with either the CoM catching up to the feet or foot pull back immediately after edge change, the tips do NOT come off of the snow but are in contact all the way down the backside. So if you want to lever the front of the ski to apply a braking force, you can do so.

If, on the other hand, you are levered against the front of the boot at the time of absorption, your are most likely going to get pitched even more forward and, possibly, double eject. I might have recently done so.

BTW, the technique of obtaining maximum flexion, almost to the point of a retraction turn, is extremely useful, and certainly almost absolutely needed, to ski very steep terrain. I'm working on that right now in the three days I'm skiing Whistler Blackcomb. When the terrain starts pitching up well above 40 degrees in a tight couloir, you better know who to flex with the hips getting behind the heels and be able to take a direct fall line path.

Mike
 

Mike King

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I've responded to this many times in other threads. I put a lot of effort into the explanation in the past. I'll try to keep it simple this time. The mogul skier pulls back the feet as far as physically possible to maintain constant shin pressure. When the tips point up, the feet must be further in front of the skier even with the same shin pressure. It's physically impossible to have it any other way by geometry and range of motion. So, when a mogul trough turns up hill, you will see mogul skiers with their feet further in front. This is the bicycle move. As long as the skier constantly pulls back their feet as far as they can go while the slope changes under the skier, you'll see the bicycle move. This is in contrast to some that propose that you must actively push your feet forward and open your ankles. Modern mogul technique prescribes pulling the feet back to give constant shin pressure when speed control is necessary. So, when the mogul coach talks about the technique of pulling the feet back, he's describing as far as it will go while staying balanced. If the trough points down the hill, the result will look the same as his demo. Regardless, the primary concern for the intention and result is to achieve the position shown in the video just after crest on the backside when the slope is pointing down. Other types of skiers will achieve open ankles at this point which is in opposition to modern mogul technique.
I never said you pushed your feet forward. But all of this talk of getting forward gives people the wrong impression.

Here's the physics of the situation. When you turn into the fall line, the skis accelerate. In order to stay in the center of the ski, you have to move forward. I saw a great video showing this -- it's a rollerblader dropping into a quarter pipe. The feet have to stall while the upper body moves down toward the bottom of the quarter pipe -- e.g. the CoM is moving forward to stay in the center of the skate -- if not, you will fall either backwards or forward.


Similarly, when the skis slow, you actually have to move aft to remain in the center of the ski. So, some of this is simply necessary to stay in the center of the ski.

Mike
 
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