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ski otter 2

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Just a few other thoughts:

The FIS W 188/30s, for a man skiing recreationally, are more relaxed, easier to carve at high angles, and probably require less speed and less empty terrain to ski as intended. And, at least at my lesser weight, they are wonderful all day.

A reason to like the 18/23 range is that it is even more this way, requiring even less space to turn, less of a swath down the mountain, so to speak; and a bit less speed required, while still good for the general feel and technique of GS skiing. Ideally, I'd like to have a pair of GS style skis in each length/radius type.

To me, skis of the full range of GS length and radius are all wonderful, definitely distinctly different from one another in feel, predictably (though at my lesser weight the Men's 193 FIS GS are too much ski long term, especially the stiffer versions).

When friends of mine who are otherwise very good to excellent skiers get on a pair of my FIS woman's 188/30s (let alone a pair of the men's 193 FIS skis), they generally ski them fast and fairly straight - almost as if they were Super G skis, instead of in the more turny, more on edge, more laid over at high angles way these skis were designed for. And they generally can't tell the difference. (And don't want to know, actually.)
 

DVL

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Thanks for the info! I as well have Rossignol Hero Master 185/23 2019 as an all-purpose ski and I always take 2-3 pairs with me. I usually ski in France where I search for wide, empty slopes where I could use something like the Volkl 196/35 that I currently have. And yes, I'm definitely doing more liki SG turns with it, so maybe you are right that the 188 FIS would be better for me. Although I enjoyed those Volkls a lot despite the fact I probably wasn't bending it at its maximum. I will think it through - if I want to go with the 188 or 193... And well, if the Augments are way better than anything else, than I guess I can wait for some good deal on them rather than buing the Head right now.
 

Swede

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Agreed with @Tony S.

"Stiffness: 7" tells you that stiffness is a parameter when choosing the ski, that this ski is 7 out of 10 on whatever scale Augment is using (in which they do at least tell you which numbers are stiffer), and—most importantly—that you can actually find the stiffness you want once you've figured out what it is. "GX73B95" or "57/32" tell you nothing if you don't already know exactly what you're looking at. That would be fine if there was a way, as the customer buying the ski, to educate yourself, but I certainly haven't seen the information needed to actually understand what those numbers mean, let alone that they even describe stiffness, distributed anywhere publicly accessible.

I'm not sure how you'd ever really come up with a meaningful way to standardize measurement of a ski's stiffness, since whatever you choose, flex pattern, early rise, etc. are all going to affect the way a given ski measures. (Similar is true of, say, boot flex, or to an extent, ski length.) That doesn't mean it isn't extremely useful to understand where a ski falls within a manufacturer's lineup or within the range of flexes they may produce, and some attempt at standardization would still be far more useful than none.

FIS race models are aimed towards racers in teams, clubs and academys. You normally have coaches to help and often manufacturers/race shops organize try outs in spring where racers test and order equipment for the next season. All the needed knowledge to pick the right flexmodels are there. Very hard to decide in theory. So not really aimed at recreational skiers, but with that said... they can be very fun for free skiing too.
 

François Pugh

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Thanks for the info! I as well have Rossignol Hero Master 185/23 2019 as an all-purpose ski and I always take 2-3 pairs with me. I usually ski in France where I search for wide, empty slopes where I could use something like the Volkl 196/35 that I currently have. And yes, I'm definitely doing more liki SG turns with it, so maybe you are right that the 188 FIS would be better for me. Although I enjoyed those Volkls a lot despite the fact I probably wasn't bending it at its maximum. I will think it through - if I want to go with the 188 or 193... And well, if the Augments are way better than anything else, than I guess I can wait for some good deal on them rather than buing the Head right now.
Maybe you would enjoy a super g ski :decisions:
 

Unpiste

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FIS race models are aimed towards racers in teams, clubs and academys. You normally have coaches to help and often manufacturers/race shops organize try outs in spring where racers test and order equipment for the next season. All the needed knowledge to pick the right flexmodels are there. Very hard to decide in theory. So not really aimed at recreational skiers, but with that said... they can be very fun for free skiing too.
I don't disagree with any of that. Coaches, team experience, and shops should all certainly provide great pointers towards choosing the ski that will work best for any given person. (Just look at all the great information here, most of which is coming from coaches and people with racing experience!) The problem (and this is getting better, slowly) is that manufacturers either don't see a reason to or are actively avoiding making authoritative information available to the general public about what they actually sell.

Take boot fitting as an analogy.

When I look for a new boot, I walk straight into Start Haus (right at the start of the season, ideally), let them show me what they think will work, and barring any major concern, I'm going to go with one of those options. But while that whole process is going on, I can easily look up exactly what they're showing me and see for myself that there's nothing else I want to try before going with that. (Not that I've ever actually had to buy elsewhere, but it was reassuring, for instance, to make a quick trip over to Granite Chief just to confirm that one option Start Haus didn't carry did indeed not provide a better initial fit.) And unlike skis, to a large extent, I can feel out how the boots are likely to work just wearing them at the shop.

Given my experience there, I'd certainly trust any information Start Haus gave me about the FIS skis they carry, but what if I want to find out about a brand they don't carry? How do I even find out what the parameters are that I'm looking at when I walk into another shop, or look online? Rather than being able to confidently verify that what I'm being told makes sense, I'm going to question everything, trying to figure out whether I'm being given a good recommendation, or whether I'm just being sold whatever's on the wall.
 
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oldschoolskier

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I don't disagree with any of that. Coaches, team experience, and shops should all certainly provide great pointers towards choosing the ski that will work best for any given person. (Just look at all the great information here, most of which is coming from coaches and people with racing experience!) The problem (and this is getting better, slowly) is that manufacturers either don't see a reason to or are actively avoiding making authoritative information available to the general public about what they actually sell.

Take boot fitting as an analogy.

When I look for a new boot, I walk straight into Start Haus (right at the start of the season, ideally), let them show me what they think will work, and barring any major concern, I'm going to go with one of those options. But while that whole process is going on, I can easily look up exactly what they're showing me and see for myself that there's nothing else I want to try before going with that. (Not that I've ever actually had to buy elsewhere, but it was reassuring, for instance, to make a quick trip over to Granite Chief just to confirm that one option Start Haus didn't carry did indeed not provide a better initial fit.) And unlike skis, to a large extent, I can feel out how the boots are likely to work just wearing them at the shop.

Given my experience there, I'd certainly trust any information Start Haus gave me about the FIS skis they carry, but what if I want to find out about a brand they don't carry? How do I even find out what the parameters are that I'm looking at when I walk into another shop, or look online? Rather than being able to confidently verify that what I'm being told makes sense, I'm going to question everything, trying to figure out whether I'm being given a good recommendation, or whether I'm just being sold whatever's on the wall.
Call @ScotsSkier to the phone and ask for the best unbiased opinion.

Boots are primarily fitment issue (which leads to a lot of problems in itself in getting fit) though makes it easier in pointing in the right direction, race skis are skier build, style strength, issue, the problem here is finding a reviewer that can match your needs (harder than finding a good boot fitter IMHO).
 

Swiss Toni

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I want to know what all the options are up front, from an impartial source, and try to understand about where I should be looking in terms of flex. The last place I want to get my facts is from a shop motivated to share a bunch of half truths arranged around what inventory they happen to have at the moment. Been there with Nordic skis.

You may be able to find the information your looking for via the Sooth ski selector https://soothski.com/ they have developed a testing device that measures flex and torsional stiffness. As they are academics they have written a paper on it https://www.researchgate.net/public...sional_Stiffness_Distributions_of_Alpine_Skis Even though it's somewhat dated Nicola Petrone’s paper ‘The use of an Edge Load Profile static bench for the qualification of alpine skis’ https://www.researchgate.net/public...ic_bench_for_the_qualification_of_alpine_skis might also be worth a look.
 

Unpiste

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Call @ScotsSkier to the phone and ask for the best unbiased opinion.

Boots are primarily fitment issue (which leads to a lot of problems in itself in getting fit) though makes it easier in pointing in the right direction, race skis are skier build, style strength, issue, the problem here is finding a reviewer that can match your needs (harder than finding a good boot fitter IMHO).
I'm not really at the point where it makes much sense to go seeking out a specific flex at full race price vs. just finding a good deal on skis from a season or two ago, which is part of what makes any barriers to understanding exactly what I'm buying and exactly what I'm skiing all the more frustrating. This is good advice, though.

I usually run into @ScotsSkier at least a couple times during the season (and will almost certainly spend 5~10 days with other Masters coaches on and off), so I certainly have that opportunity. But it's all that much easier to discuss something like ski selection with knowledgeable people if you at least come into the conversation knowing roughly what you're talking about.
 

ScotsSkier

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FIS race models are aimed towards racers in teams, clubs and academys. You normally have coaches to help and often manufacturers/race shops organize try outs in spring where racers test and order equipment for the next season. All the needed knowledge to pick the right flexmodels are there. Very hard to decide in theory. So not really aimed at recreational skiers, but with that said... they can be very fun for free skiing too.

Call @ScotsSkier to the phone and ask for the best unbiased opinion.

Boots are primarily fitment issue (which leads to a lot of problems in itself in getting fit) though makes it easier in pointing in the right direction, race skis are skier build, style strength, issue, the problem here is finding a reviewer that can match your needs (harder than finding a good boot fitter IMHO).

my emphasis!! These are both great points.

Lots of calls here for "more data" but not necessarily too much rationale for how you would use it or even if what people think they would use it for is valid I'm afraid!. As in so many other spheres of business lots of demand for more data without it necessarily being relevant or useful. (and you would not believe the volume of data that Companies collect and hold in "data lakes" that is not used (or useful) and just taking up storage space!. Having advised several clients on data analytics, the biggest challenge is always helping them understand what data and analytics will actually be actionable and help them improve performance rather than just creating color charts to stick on the wall!)

When it comes to race skis, without some coaching input based on knowledge of you and having watched you, I venture to suggest that >80% (and I am probably being generous here! ogsmile) would struggle to determine from the data whether or not they should select a particular stiffness/flex. Stiffer is not always better contrary to folklore! and comparing stiffness across brands with different dimensions/build structures is meaningless. And what feels good (or what is thought to feel good!) is not necessarily fastest. So there is a actually a good reason for manufacturers not providing much data for off-the-rack race stock as it takes a variable out of the inventory stocking/ordering equation. If you look at Atomic, they (nominally) offer Stiff, medium and soft flexes (and this is shown as xx/yy on the ski) but in my experience 90% of the inventory comes in as medium. Of course all brands offer a much more specific and tailored flex pattern for high level supported racers but this is based on extensive testing and experience and timing to determine what actually works better for that specific athlete.

Now, kudos to Augment, they are innovators and lead the industry in offering a flex range from 1-10 to all retail buyers as well as a selection tool to help guide buyers in their selection. And this flex option is available across the range, not just for race skis. For race skis though i would strongly advocate getting your coach's input as well. And preferably from a coach that is knowledgeable about differences between brands, not just recommending the brand that supports them.
 

Unpiste

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Agreed entirely! Again, just to restate, all I'd like to see is, effectively, a catalog of what's actually out there without having to go through industry insiders. I'm not expecting objective, comparable metrics, and I'm certainly not expecting enough information to go out on my own and find the perfect ski. That seems like a pretty reasonable request.
 

Unpiste

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On second thought, I agree almost entirely.

Where I disagree is that product data should be held back because people haven't presented a "valid" use for it. I certainly don't mean to insinuate anything, but my natural first question when data is being held back is, "Who doesn't want me to know this, and how are they benefiting from the information being restricted?". While I suspect the reality is pretty mundane in that manufacturers just don't want to deal with the logistic issues that would come up if they clearly labeled flex, it's not a big leap to imagine that this practice exists, in part, because it does make it easier to quietly give preferential selection to select skiers.

Ultimately, if the data isn't available, how would we know that there isn't a valid use for it?
 

oldschoolskier

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@Unpiste there is a thread on this site (sorry don’t remember what its called, help Pugski staff and post a link please), that deals with ski reviews and there reviewers. In this thread the discussion of what information provides the best informative review and interpreting the review is discussed. This also points in how to select the reviewer, so that the data is applicable with you.

Please read the thread if a link is posted and some of the questions you seem to be asking will be answered, then go find a reviewer that matches you.
 

Unpiste

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I'm not asking for detailed reviews or personalized recommendations (I know where to find them ogwink), I'm making a case for manufacturers providing more complete product information. I appreciate the attempt to help, though.
 
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ski otter 2

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Thanks for the info! I as well have Rossignol Hero Master 185/23 2019 as an all-purpose ski and I always take 2-3 pairs with me. I usually ski in France where I search for wide, empty slopes where I could use something like the Volkl 196/35 that I currently have. And yes, I'm definitely doing more liki SG turns with it, so maybe you are right that the 188 FIS would be better for me. Although I enjoyed those Volkls a lot despite the fact I probably wasn't bending it at its maximum. I will think it through - if I want to go with the 188 or 193... And well, if the Augments are way better than anything else, than I guess I can wait for some good deal on them rather than buing the Head right now.

I wasn't myself saying the 188/30s would be better for you - that's up to you once you get a chance to try them both. I was just suggesting you try them and that they are pretty special.

I also love the feel of the masters 185/23, what a great ski!! Usually, I don't like as much some of the softer flexing non-FIS or masters versions of race skis. But that particular version of length/radius was a knockout. (The ones I tried were a Dynastar version, billed, by the rep at least, as non-FIS gs versions that to him were standouts; for two or three years at least, he's had the latest pair for his own quiver.)
 

François Pugh

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I'm not asking for detailed reviews or personalized recommendations (I know where to find them ogwink), I'm making a case for manufacturers providing more complete product information. I appreciate the attempt to help, though.
A cynical person might say that the manufacturers do not provide information to the public so that the marketing people can have their way with them; sell the sizzle, not the steak (I only care about the steak). Besides, if the public had all the information they needed, how could the poor manufacturer's licensed distributors unload their over-ordered stock on an unsuspecting public.
 

ski otter 2

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I'm not sure how the different situations in Europe effect all this, but to me, the problem with the ratings of flex for race skis isn't really the ratings method. It's that FIS, non-FIS and near race skis alike are such fringe items in the U.S. market, and are thus not generally available for demoing - or often, even buying - except through race coach, club and specialty shop channels, demoed and sold in relatively small volume, in small circles where distribution can be concentrated and more economical.

For me, without the hands on experience, the numbers don't mean much one way or the other. On the other hand, the recommendations of folks in the know with that experience do mean a whole lot.

If I can't get on em, then the numbers however dialed in, won't be of much use to me, in my experience, without someone with lots of race connections and experience pointing me in the right directions. Someone like @ScotsSkier. And then it's "bingo!" whatever the terminology.
 

markojp

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Though not running gates much at all, pretty much every race ski (except non-FIS SL's) I've been on skis very very well. I guess I'm an easy to please simpleton in that regard.
 
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James

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If flex data is written in a race ski, you still need a baseline to know how it is. You can flex it in the store and get a sense.
Same with a flex number of 1-10. If you have no idea what the difference in a 2 and 7 is, no amount of words can give you it.
 

ScotsSkier

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On second thought, I agree almost entirely.

Where I disagree is that product data should be held back because people haven't presented a "valid" use for it. I certainly don't mean to insinuate anything, but my natural first question when data is being held back is, "Who doesn't want me to know this, and how are they benefiting from the information being restricted?". While I suspect the reality is pretty mundane in that manufacturers just don't want to deal with the logistic issues that would come up if they clearly labeled flex, it's not a big leap to imagine that this practice exists, in part, because it does make it easier to quietly give preferential selection to select skiers.

Ultimately, if the data isn't available, how would we know that there isn't a valid use for it?

A cynical person might say that the manufacturers do not provide information to the public so that the marketing people can have their way with them; sell the sizzle, not the steak (I only care about the steak). Besides, if the public had all the information they needed, how could the poor manufacturer's licensed distributors unload their over-ordered stock on an unsuspecting public.

wow! looks like the tinfoil hats are out tonight!!! :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
 

Ross Biff

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Though not running gates much at all, pretty much every race ski (except non-FIS SL's) I've been on skis very very well. I guess I'm an easy to please simpleton in that regard.
What was it about the non FIS Sl's that you didn't like?
 

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