Great!
sorry Rod!
ps, hopefully not taken negatively, but many of your points feel more valid now that I know more about you.
Cheers!
W
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eBike Electric MTB- Wow! Mike T's Take
Great!
sorry Rod!
ps, hopefully not taken negatively, but many of your points feel more valid now that I know more about you.
Cheers!
W
OK,
i'm still trying to figure out this watt thing.... I ride for fun, and don't race anymore, so never measured watts, but I want to know to see if my gut instinct of the ebikes being too powerful is correct.
I rode my favorite ride again today (no snow of course), Tahoe Meadows up by Mt Rose to tunnel creek, then rim trail up to high point, overlooking marlette lake and back again and used an app that estimated watts. 24 miles, 2950ft of climbing, ave speed, 8.4 mph, and average watts... wait for it.... 133!
Passing a few dozen people, moving right along, and only 133. So, that starts to validate my opinion that you really don't need bikes that add so much power.
Nobody on else on this trail is going faster then me today and I"m generating 133, why do people think ebikes need 250-400 or whatever they are?
It seems a bike that adds 100 to 150 and feels like a mt bike may be a great option.
Anyway, still working through this new toy and how it can affect the trails we all know and love... still avail to test our ride together theory, Phil. Meet at Keystone soon?
I also wanted to point out these ebike marketing adds are misleading, (while advertising, so maybe redundant), but that guy making an ebike look great could do the same thing on a bmx bike or a KTM. It's not about the bike...
Cheers!
W
i'm still trying to figure out this watt thing.... I ride for fun, and don't race anymore, so never measured watts, but I want to know to see if my gut instinct of the ebikes being too powerful is correct.
I rode my favorite ride again today (no snow of course), Tahoe Meadows up by Mt Rose to tunnel creek, then rim trail up to high point, overlooking marlette lake and back again and used an app that estimated watts. 24 miles, 2950ft of climbing, ave speed, 8.4 mph, and average watts... wait for it.... 133!
Passing a few dozen people, moving right along, and only 133. So, that starts to validate my opinion that you really don't need bikes that add so much power.
Nobody on else on this trail is going faster then me today and I"m generating 133, why do people think ebikes need 250-400 or whatever they are?
It seems a bike that adds 100 to 150 and feels like a mt bike may be a great option.
Anyway, still working through this new toy and how it can affect the trails we all know and love... still avail to test our ride together theory, Phil. Meet at Keystone soon?
I also wanted to point out these ebike marketing adds are misleading, (while advertising, so maybe redundant), but that guy making an ebike look great could do the same thing on a bmx bike or a KTM. It's not about the bike...
Cheers!
W
Not taken negatively, but i don't understand how my points feel more valid now.
Nice ride!
E-bikes put out 750 watts, sustained!!! Yep, it's crazy. It's not mountain biking.
250 watts is the average a well-trained cyclist can manage in a maximum one-hour effort. That drops substantially in a several hour effort like yours. It's also so painful and draining you are toast for a week. People generally don't ride anywhere near a maximum effort, at least not very often or for very long.
Even the very best cyclists can only put out 750 watts for short sprint. Here's a power over time by cyclist percentile graph:
That's from this great post about human power output:
https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2018/06/how-does-your-cycling-power-output-compare
750 watts looks nothing like human biking. Note those numbers are from cyclists crazy enough about the sport to spend a load of cash on a power meter. Maybe 1 or 2%?
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I read it as "Oh, he's old." so it's ok.
For the record, I will never ride any bike like that, let along an e-bike.
Not sure how many MTB riders would. Maybe I'm a little lame in thinking this way but...
The 750W is there so the big out of shape guy (250 lbs + 50 lbs bike) can feel uphill acceleration like a pro (150 lbs pro @ 400W). I am guessing it has more to do with power to weight ratio for the uphill, not speed on the flat. Likely it also includes margin so as the bike gets old and lube/bearings/motor degrade, or if battery is cold, it still feels good at ~400W.
@tball your power chart aligns with what I have seen in the gym, at least when I think of row or ski-erg machine power numbers.
What is the 'usual' grade of a MTB trail? My guess is the design constraint is that the 750W is needed to move a big dude up something steep at a jogging pace (5mph) with minimal rider input. Slower than that, and the rider would probably get off and walk the bike since its harder to balance at slow speed. My math shows this happening around 15 degree slope. Need to get off to walk an e-bike = no sale.
@tball your power chart aligns with what I have seen in the gym, at least when I think of row or ski-erg machine power numbers.
What is the 'usual' grade of a MTB trail? My guess is the design constraint is that the 750W is needed to move a big dude up something steep at a jogging pace (5mph) with minimal rider input. Slower than that, and the rider would probably get off and walk the bike since its harder to balance at slow speed. My math shows this happening around 15 degree slope. Need to get off to walk an e-bike = no sale.
@Seldomski, I think your analysis is off base. 750 watts is totally unnecessary.
Note that in the EU the limit is 250 watts. That's more in line with human output.
Also, note that you add the average 250 watts from the human to the motor's power. So in the US, it's 750 motor watts + 250 human watts = 1000 total watts. It's nuts to call that mountain biking. It isn't.
The reason for allowing the crazy high power on e-bikes is to make long-distance e-bike commuting possible. I'm all for that. Just not for that much power on mountain bike trails, at least where motorized vehicles are not allowed.
On e-MTB's, the reason for the power is fun. Speed is fun. Going uphill slowly is boring and time-consuming. That's mountain biking, at least where you can't ride a lift or shuttle.
They have created a new sport where you get the benefit of a lift or shuttle where one doesn't exist, and you can have fun going uphill. See this "uphill flow" video from the largest maker of e-bike motors as confirmation:
That looks like fun, but it's not mountain biking and doesn't belong on trails where motorized vehicles are not allowed. And note Gary Fisher is poised to make a ton of money off e-bikes, like the rest of the industry. Just say no to the big e-bike lobby!
Note that in the EU the limit is 250 watts. That's more in line with human output.
Also, note that you add the average 250 watts from the human to the motor's power. So in the US, it's 750 motor watts + 250 human watts = 1000 total watts. It's nuts to call that mountain biking. It isn't.
The reason for allowing the crazy high power on e-bikes is to make long-distance e-bike commuting possible. I'm all for that. Just not for that much power on mountain bike trails, at least where motorized vehicles are not allowed.
On e-MTB's, the reason for the power is fun. Speed is fun. Going uphill slowly is boring and time-consuming. That's mountain biking, at least where you can't ride a lift or shuttle.
They have created a new sport where you get the benefit of a lift or shuttle where one doesn't exist, and you can have fun going uphill. See this "uphill flow" video from the largest maker of e-bike motors as confirmation:
That looks like fun, but it's not mountain biking and doesn't belong on trails where motorized vehicles are not allowed. And note Gary Fisher is poised to make a ton of money off e-bikes, like the rest of the industry. Just say no to the big e-bike lobby!
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I guess to me they are more valid, because I really think that everybody should get an "Unconditional Class 1 E-MTB Permit" on their 65th birthday.
I ride a couple times every year with a group of guys between 68 and 72. They use e-bikes. I don't. I'm still a wee bit faster, and we have a blast together.
They all have a long riding history, so know how to play the uphill speed etiquette game very considerately, which obviously helps.
Two of the four would still be riding without e-bikes, but not as often, or as joyfully. The other two would/could not be riding any more without e-assist.
No easy "one size fits all" answers here. And I've said it before, but the train is coming, in some form or another. Best to work constructively about reasonable e-bike usage rules than scream at the sky "none, anywhere, ever!"
DISCLAIMER: I'm looking at 60 in the near future, so am probably a bit swayed on the 65th birthday thing.
I think there are a lot of places e-bikes are fantastic, just not on mountain bike trails where there is an existing conflict with other users.
The trails where I MTB most the time already have substantial conflict. Mountain bikes have been banned from trails I used to ride. It's inevitable we'll be banned from more trails if e-bikes are allowed in my view.
300 lbs (250lbs rider + 50 lbs bike) = 1330 Newtons. If we pretend the bicycle is 100% efficient in turning electric power to vertical velocity at low speed (it's not, but bicycles are generally very efficient), this yields top speed of 0.56 m/s vertical velocity (1.3 mph) at 750 W. (Power = Force x velocity). So for a 4:1 slope (25% grade) the bike travels ~ 5 mph with minimal input from the human. If the grade is 1/2 that, then 10mph at 750W, etc. I don't think this is an 'unnecessary' amount of power. You concede in your chart that many people can actually output more than 750W, albeit for short periods of time.
The e-bike needs to be appealing to the customer. I can see how they arrived at 750W.
I also totally get your point @tball regarding deconflicting these with other trail users. But I don't think the designers of the e-bike made a mistake here in the power. It seems reasonable to me.
Yes, a human can put out 750 watts for 1-2 minutes max. An e-bike can do 750 watts forever with spare batteries.
I'm not saying it's a mistake. It's just not mountain biking at that high power output.
I think they did a great job designing a new sport. A motor sport. See the uphill flow video above. What trails that new sport should be allowed on is a different question.
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I think your math is off somewhere.
Here's a concrete example of how 750 watts is completely unnecessary. A big climb many skiers have driven and many cyclists have ridden is Vail Pass eastbound from East Vail to the summit. This is part of the popular Copper Triangle road bike ride for which there are several organized events each summer. It's one of my favorite climbs.
This segment has been ridden a zillion times. Strava has almost 22,000 attempts by over 11,000 people! Here are the stats for the climb:
Now have a look at the power output for the top ten times from those 22,000 attempts:
https://www.strava.com/segments/675180
Notice the second name in the leaderboard is Ned Overend. He put out 292 watts for that climb.
750 watts is completely unnecessary for mountain biking. It's also completely unnatural. Ned Overend is unnatural with just his legs, and he can only put out 292 watts over 32 minutes.
Is it necessary for e-MTB's to have triple the power of Ned Overend?
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Wade, you are stronger than 133 watts! That is a very conservative number. Although I have never used a watt meter on a mountain bike; at 155lbs, 190 watts is recovery for me on the road (2-hours) and good for around 18.5-19mph. 220 watts would be solid 4-hour base pace (figure 20.5-21mph on a flattish non-windy road ride). The trouble with the app you are using is that it calculates elevation gain and speed, but not how loose, dry, or technical the trail is, nor does it do a good job of estimating losses due to bike and tire inefficiency. It works somewhat well on the road: plus or minus 10%.
Having ridden with you, I would say on a climb that is technical and challenging, with say a 145 HR (your threshold assumed to be 150), you are closer to 190 watts.
As it relates to this thread: no rider needs an "assist" of 275 watts. That is simply crazy. A very fit rider can consistently (on the road) put out 4.2-4.5 watts/kg for an hour. A mountain bike climb has more of a zipper-like profile, with power surges to clean obstacles or a particularly steep section, but power over the course of an hour is slightly lower. So, maybe 260 watts for a 70kg rider who races at the elite level. Why would anyone need more power than that, in addition to their own power? Even a very weak rider can put out 100 watts. Sure, I can see a power boost of 50-100 watts being beneficial for short periods (again, to clean steep sections or tricky power technical sections), but more than that, and consistently, it just isn't needed. Even 65+ year-old I ride with can keep up 95% of the time; the have good endurance and can cruise at 150 watts, but they don't have the strength of a younger rider and therefore can crank up 300 watts+ for 15 seconds to ride that particularly powerful rocky section 75-meters in length. I think a small power boost is perfect for that rider. But NONE of those guys want to ride something where a switch can be flipped and they just start dropping pros. At that age, just like any age, there is a sense of accomplishment by doing something under one's own power (mostly, to the best of your ability) and pushing oneself just a bit further than might be "comfortable" or "easy".
I see a path forward for a lightweight, low-wattage "boost" system, but riding some e-bike that weighs 25 lbs more than the regular version, handles poorly, and makes everything feel as effortless as riding a beach cruiser on the boardwalk defeats the essence of what mountain biking means to many of us.
Wait, we are talking about bikes with 750 watts? Isn't that called a motorcycle? Ned's numbers are low due to elevation though: One loses around 1% power for every 1k feet in elevation.
Nobody does 750 watts consistently, unless they weigh 280 lbs. Even during the doping years, Armstrong could put out 6.3-6.4 watts/kg, or ~450 watts for a guy weighing 153 lbs, for 40 minutes on Alpe d'Huez. I have been able to put out 454 watts for 5+ minutes (which is, for a clean rider, considered to be a benchmark for getting a good pro contract in the states) and I can say, it took years, good genes, and a ton of fitness to get to that point (to where I could hang with any domestic pro on a climb), and that is nowhere near 750 watts. 750 watts would be about 21 mph on a consistent 9% grade!
There's no way you can be faster uphill than an ebike.
Btw, where is this bike with 750 w?
Mine has 250 and 8 never use level 4.
Level 3 i use only on the steepest technical trail. Otherwise, i fell like my bike leaves me behind.
Anyway, guys, get over this.
E mountain bikes are here to stay. Just look at Europe.
Mine has 250 and 8 never use level 4.
Level 3 i use only on the steepest technical trail. Otherwise, i fell like my bike leaves me behind.
Anyway, guys, get over this.
E mountain bikes are here to stay. Just look at Europe.
Yes. E-bikes in the US have a maximum power of 750 watts, including Class 1 that are being pushed by the e-bike industry to be allowed on non-motorized trails.
The federal Consumer Product Safety Act defines a "low speed electric bicycle" as a two or three wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals, a top speed when powered solely by the motor under 20 mph (32 km/h) and an electric motor that produces less than 750 W (1.01 hp). The Act authorizes the Consumer Product Safety Commission to protect people who ride low-speed electric vehicles by issuing necessary safety regulations.[58] The rules for e-bikes on public roads, sidewalks, and pathways are under state jurisdiction, and vary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#United_States
That's not mountain biking and does not belong on non-motorized trails.
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maybe all electric bikes should be fat bikes to prevent erosion?
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