eBike Electric MTB- Wow! Mike T's Take

[newfydog]

I don't think that is the way this is going to go. I mean look at the Dodge Hellcat. 700-something horsepower, so what do they do? Dodge Demon! I really don't see E-bike owners being like, "yeah, this is cool, but it would be better if it was slower".

Well, in actual riding, I do that all the time. I ride high power levels on the road out to the trails. When I get there, I find them more fun on the lower power levels, where I'm riding the bike without being pushed around by the motor. The trail riding handles best at a certain speed. I fast-forward the boring approach, and savor the trail riding.

Of course, most people here put the bike on the car to get out there. The e-bike lets me leave the car at home.

 

[newfydog]

Good to see there is some thoughtful discussion still going on, as well as the stuff which can only come from someone who hasn't used them much.

I just put together my sixth Bikesdirect e-bike, this one for my family doctor. I also just returned from six weeks of riding in France.

We brought a pair of bikes over and left them in France. We gave our old 20 year old titanium Mongoose mtbs to our landlord, to offer with the rental house.

It was great revisiting the trails I've been on for years with the ebike. I've put together trails and routes connecting 17 medieval villages in my corner of Provence. I even made a guide for friends and visitors, "VTT et Vin Rose'"

The riding is a mix of vineyard and olive grove trails, fire roads, one lane paved roads with grass growing through the cracks, etc. It is wonderful biking, but the occasional 22% pitches put a limit on what sort of route you ride. I only have so many matches to burn in a day, and getting back to the house includes one of those climbs. The ebike lets me go where ever I want, lets me fast forward the paved roads, and gets me back to the house without croaking. It has added years to my French bike vacations.

The stores over there are full of ebikes. Lots of people riding them for fun, as well as for groceries and commuting. They are good things, and they are here to stay.

Here's one of my favorite little medieval hilltop towns. A visit to there meant skipping some other places on the ride, so I'd usually go around it. With the ebike, a visit to Fox Amphoux can be included without prematurely emptying the tank.

 

[Eleeski]

It depends on the trail.

On some trails, motorized vehicles are not a problem. On others, motorized bikes going 2-3 times faster uphill and double the downhill traffic is a huge problem.

Trail damage is a minor issue compared to the concern about additional traffic and higher speeds annoying other trail users and getting all bikes banned.

But,

Yeah, but trails are meant for people to enjoy them.

What good is a perfect trail if nobody uses it? None of the trails I visit are anywhere near traffic saturation. I might see another group - maybe. If we are talking about the trails in Yosemite valley in summer, then traffic is an issue. Otherwise, more traffic is good. (I haven't figured out how to enjoy untracked powder on my bike yet.)

Eric

 

[Rod9301]

But,


What good is a perfect trail if nobody uses it? None of the trails I visit are anywhere near traffic saturation. I might see another group - maybe. If we are talking about the trails in Yosemite valley in summer, then traffic is an issue. Otherwise, more traffic is good. (I haven't figured out how to enjoy untracked powder on my bike yet.)

Eric

I just bought a fat tire ebike for approaches in the winter.
I like to bc ski on the east side of Sierra, and most roads are closed in the winter.

Like 120, buttermilk, rock Creek, Sonora pass.
I'm hoping to use the ebike to get to the bottom of the mountain i want to ski, then skin up it

It opens a lot of possibilities.

Also, east side of Shasta in the spring. The road is almost clear, except for a couple of places with snow, which normally will stop a car a few miles from the trailhead.

Well see.

 

[Philpug]

Twice the downhill causes twice the damage.

I guess, I am worse than what you are referrring to because I am riding my non e C-dale Trigger 4-5x more than I rode the year prior. Again, where is the line drawn?

 

[tball]

What good is a perfect trail if nobody uses it? None of the trails I visit are anywhere near traffic saturation.

As I said, it depends on the trail. The trails where I ride are already over saturated.

Adding another type of trail user only makes the crowding and conflict worse. The fact that this new type of user can go faster and longer than any of the existing trail users compounds the problem.

 

[tball]

I guess, I am worse than what you are referrring to because I am riding my non e C-dale Trigger 4-5x more than I rode the year prior. Again, where is the line drawn?

It's awesome you are riding more!

I think it's pretty easy to draw the line between where motorized vehicles are allowed and where they are not. If the local trail managers feel e-bikes are appropriate, great. If not then there are plenty of other places to ride them. The presumption that e-bikes should be allowed on all mountain bike trails is flat wrong, IMO.

In spite of what the e-bike industry would like folks to believe, there is an impact and that impact needs to be managed.

 

[WadeHoliday]

Good points tball. and I agree.

Rod.
dude... ?
elitist...? that promotes discussion?

Eleeski, not enough people on the trails?

to phil and rods question,
yes, heavier bikes and larger rotors cause more braking bumps and create a much rougher trail. Ride a northstar bike park trail, then ride similar rock and soil in an area without dh traffic and it's obvious. I spend dozens of hours a yr maintaining trails, and all types of use cause different damage. More speed/more weight/larger brakes= more work to be done.

Phil, with so many people now on the trails, it is relevant how we enjoy them. There is trail etiquette, the right toys for the right trails and all of these choices we make change other users enjoyment of the trails.

No one seemed to like the idea I put out of making ebikes closer to human powered?
Mike shouldn't blast past a top level pro on a techy climb, that just shows that trail speed is not in the range of a bicycle, and part of the reason why land managers are having trouble allowing them. If they looked just like regular bikes and added enough watts people could enjoy the experience more while still getting good exercise, that differential would be much less, conflicts less and trails happier imo.

I have seen many changes in mt biking since my picking it up in 1988, and I admit, I've had issues with many of those changes, like the huge ladder bridge phase, just to create more risk and land managers having to close trails, stava idiots cutting trails, taking out rocks and building berms to speed up "their" line, just for internet bragging rights, lots of "trail sanitation" just when biking is easier than it's ever been due to the quality of the new toys, but this latest fad I'm worried may be the most damaging if it really catches on.

cheers,
Wade

 

[WadeHoliday]

I just bought a fat tire ebike for approaches in the winter.
I like to bc ski on the east side of Sierra, and most roads are closed in the winter.

Like 120, buttermilk, rock Creek, Sonora pass.
I'm hoping to use the ebike to get to the bottom of the mountain i want to ski, then skin up it

It opens a lot of possibilities.

Also, east side of Shasta in the spring. The road is almost clear, except for a couple of places with snow, which normally will stop a car a few miles from the trailhead.

Well see.

Rod, I think this an amazing idea, by the way. for roads like this, could be super fun, quieter then sled's, and low impact.
This new tech should have amazing uses, I'm not anti power, I ski the resort, i'm not anti ebike, just anti ebike on non motorized singletrack, mainly due to trail speed differential and trail damage as mentioned.
With the hundreds of miles of logging roads, I think many outdoor users could find great adventures on ebikes there as well, linking huge loops in the forest.
cheers,
W

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Wade, what do you think of this - https://www.pugski.com/threads/drones-and-ebikes.11708/

 

[WadeHoliday]

Wade, what do you think of this - https://www.pugski.com/threads/drones-and-ebikes.11708/

Interesting, drones...
enforcement is always an issue.

The vigilante approach is always tough!
I've had some pretty rough run ins where I thought I was close to getting beaten up, 3 20 somethings on motos cutting a new trail in full gear, I confronted them and they finally saw reason and left before pummeling me.. another time, 2 guys w/ rifles and camo on 3 wheelers removing rocks from the trails to "smooth them out". I thought I might get shot for telling them the rocks need to stay.... but they too saw my point and left.

I'll think on the drone thing...

Regarding power, in your thread, I pulled the quote from Phil, I guess others who are pro ebike are also wondering about the speed differential.

"I do agree with your top speed. For Class 1 bikes, particularly mountain bikes, I see no reason for the top speed to be what it is, at 25Khm. I have not gone near that on anything other thas a fireroad. IMHO, 15Khm is fine for mountain biking, by doing this is can solve a couple of problems. First, weight, One of the major knocks against ebikes is the weight. A smaller motor and smaller battery will get the bikes down to the 40lb and under range."

Seems your landowner makes good sense to me. His property: people should use it how he sees fit. Quiet, respectful, enjoy the trail and the moment and minimize the impact. All trails should be no strava!

Cheers!
W

 

[Rod9301]

Interesting, drones...
enforcement is always an issue.

The vigilante approach is always tough!
I've had some pretty rough run ins where I thought I was close to getting beaten up, 3 20 somethings on motos cutting a new trail in full gear, I confronted them and they finally saw reason and left before pummeling me.. another time, 2 guys w/ rifles and camo on 3 wheelers removing rocks from the trails to "smooth them out". I thought I might get shot for telling them the rocks need to stay.... but they too saw my point and left.

I'll think on the drone thing...

Regarding power, in your thread, I pulled the quote from Phil, I guess others who are pro ebike are also wondering about the speed differential.

"I do agree with your top speed. For Class 1 bikes, particularly mountain bikes, I see no reason for the top speed to be what it is, at 25Khm. I have not gone near that on anything other thas a fireroad. IMHO, 15Khm is fine for mountain biking, by doing this is can solve a couple of problems. First, weight, One of the major knocks against ebikes is the weight. A smaller motor and smaller battery will get the bikes down to the 40lb and under range."

Seems your landowner makes good sense to me. His property: people should use it how he sees fit. Quiet, respectful, enjoy the trail and the moment and minimize the impact. All trails should be no strava!

Cheers!
W

Who says weight is an issue on e bikes. Except someone who hasn't ridden one?

 

[WadeHoliday]

Who says weight is an issue on e bikes. Except someone who hasn't ridden one?

Love your discussion style...

I've ridden a handful...

cheers,
w

 

[Mike Thomas]

I guess, I am worse than what you are referrring to because I am riding my non e C-dale Trigger 4-5x more than I rode the year prior. Again, where is the line drawn?

At the motor? I've seen people I consider intelligent and knowledgeable, tie themselves into knots trying to explain why ebikes aren't really motorized... it's humorous and kind of horrifying. They have a motor. It's not evil, it's not bad, it's not cheating, heck they could revolutionize transportation... but it IS a motorized vehicle. The emperor and his clothes, I guess. The bike industry really wants a new toy.

 

[Philpug]

At the motor? I've seen people I consider intelligent and knowledgeable, tie themselves into knots trying to explain why ebikes aren't really motorized... it's humorous and kind of horrifying. They have a motor. It's not evil, it's not bad, it's not cheating, heck they could revolutionize transportation... but it IS a motorized vehicle. The emperor and his clothes, I guess. The bike industry really wants a new toy.

This is where I get back to the letter of the law verses the spirit of the law. When the Motorized Vehicle law was written, eBikes weren't even conceived (in the form they are now). The law was written for gas powered vehicles that were noisy, polluted, had a high speed capacity and could do damage to the trail. Ebikes do none of that and if the last two are argued it is usually an issue it is the particular rider. The point has been brought up that people will be out there who either are not experienced or do not have the proper etiquette, being uninformed is not against the law.

 

[ejj]

I've ridden e-MTBs and they are a hoot.

But they are different than MTBs. Different going up, and different going down. Kind of a different but related sport. My moto buddies love it...

 

[Erik Timmerman]

My moto buddies love it...

Yeah, I'll bet that they do. One of my friends races MX every Sunday and he said that they have now added an EMTB class to the day's events.

 

[ejj]

Yeah, I'll bet that they do. One of my friends races MX every Sunday and he said that they have now added an EMTB class to the day's events.

Ha--that makes sense. After riding it, I see it as a combo of MTB and MX. Not an MTB.

 

[tball]

This is where I get back to the letter of the law verses the spirit of the law. When the Motorized Vehicle law was written, eBikes weren't even conceived (in the form they are now). The law was written for gas powered vehicles that were noisy, polluted, had a high speed capacity and could do damage to the trail.

The problem is everyone's interpretation of the spirit of the law is different. The letter of the law is clear. If folks don't like the letter of the law there are mechanisms to change it.

Some e-MX riders seem to think the spirit of the law also lets them ride on mountain bike trails:


That's an awesome e-machine. It's silent and doesn't pollute, but it doesn't belong on mountain bike trails. Either do 750-watt e-bikes, IMO. I like @WadeHoliday idea of 50-100 watts max for mountain bike trails, particularly trails that are shared with hikers and equestrians. Make them have similar output to human-powered mountain bikes.

Where is the line drawn?

 

[Seldomski]

Going back to the physics argument against e-bikes... What is the braking power of a MTB? Is it actually over 750W? Is the braking power of an e-bike significantly more? I assume you get damage from both activities (accelerating and decelerating). Just wondering what is the primary source of damage to the trails.

Can you actually 'peel-out' on in accelerating an e-bike? Based on what I have read, this shouldn't be possible, correct? Unless you modify the bike somehow?