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dawgcatching

Snow? What is that?
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Btw, where is this bike with 750 w?

Mine has 250 and 8 never use level 4.
Level 3 i use only on the steepest technical trail. Otherwise, i fell like my bike leaves me behind.

Anyway, guys, get over this.
E mountain bikes are here to stay. Just look at Europe.

Europe is a different market: doing a descent in the alps may require 5,000 feet of climbing, which, even if the rider is fit enough to do so, would take all day. Those rides are about access; like utilizing a small snowmobile to reach backcountry ski areas that would require 2 days of touring to reach otherwise. Over on this side of the pond, the discussion is not about remote access. E-bikes are banned on the trails here in Bend as anyone with a somewhat competent level of fitness can do most of the rides. There isn't an access issue that e-bikes solve locally; the only reason to use an e-bike in Bend is to make already easy trails "easier", to which most locals would say "just get into better shape".

For most people, cycling isn't a particularly difficult sport, but does take commitment, and the general consensus in the Central Oregon riding population is that e-mountain bikes are the answer to the question that nobody was asking. Now, e-commute bikes as a commute option and as a utility option (deliveries and personal errands); that is a completely different story. A lot more parents would put their kids into a bike trailer and tow them 2 miles to preschool (rather than drive) if they had an e-bike option. I know, as I sell a TON of e-bikes to people who want urban bicycle mobility.
 

WadeHoliday

Out on the slopes
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whew, a bit of action here.

I"m learning more about watts, thx everyone. Thx for giving an estimate of 190 for my almost 3 hr mtb ride, Scott. I thought 133 seemed low, but I'm not the powerful, just efficient, so I thought maybe it was close...

I totally agree w/ Scott that Europe is quite different, land management companies are quite different as well. Lots of "no's" from land managers on ebikes in much of our area based on my discussion with my buddy that works at Olympic BIke Shop and sells quite a few of them. He's a great mt biker, and has done tests and given feedback to Specialized and other companies about ebikes, and he said he told them exactly what I've been thinking about power levels.

We'll see how it progresses, but I do believe if all these points about "it makes it so we can ride together", and "it just gives me a small boost so I keep up with my friends", as well as "it makes it so I ride longer, so get more exercise and enjoy the descents more", all of these points are much more valid with a smaller battery, less wattage and a bike the looks and rides more like a mt bike. As it is, I agree w/ tfall that they have created a different sport and land managers will hopefully keep them a hard "no" on non motorized trails so maintenance and keeping trails open doesn't go backwards again...

Cheers,
W
 

Rod9301

Making fresh tracks
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Interesting, 750 is a lot of power, but I'm not sure it makes any difference.
You still can't go any faster uphill, because of other issues, like tech terrain, rocks, etc.

So why the hate?
 

Tom K.

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I see a path forward for a lightweight, low-wattage "boost" system, but riding some e-bike that weighs 25 lbs more than the regular version, handles poorly, and makes everything feel as effortless as riding a beach cruiser on the boardwalk defeats the essence of what mountain biking means to many of us.

I think these would be great, and that they are coming. My wife is eagerly awaiting delivery of a similar road bike (Orbea Gain) for road riding. Twenty five pounds, light assist, and somewhat limited range. Not to go faster. Simply so we can ride together more, at a pace that we both enjoy.

I'd buy her a similar e-mtb tomorrow.

There's no way you can be faster uphill than an ebike.

You must have missed the part where I said "They all have a long riding history, so know how to play the uphill speed etiquette game very considerately, which obviously helps."
 

WadeHoliday

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Interesting, 750 is a lot of power, but I'm not sure it makes any difference.
You still can't go any faster uphill, because of other issues, like tech terrain, rocks, etc.

So why the hate?

No hate here, I think this thread has been pretty darn reasonable discussion, both pros and cons.
To go back to the beginning.... speed differential of bikes/hikers etc and user conflicts from that can arise from that, as well as the extra trail degradation that will come if we get lots of these heavier faster bikes with bigger rotors on our trails are my concern. They are early in their formation, so additional discussions may help provide a more considerate progression of the ebikes people choose to buy, which will help shape where the companies put their energies.

"you can't go any faster".. what?
Mt bike races are won on the uphills, always have been, always will be. Add more power and you can go faster, no question. Back when i thought I was strong, I used to tell my brother (a pro downhiller back in the day) that techy uphills and flats are super fun if you have the fitness to add another few mph to the game.

Once again, no hate. I think an ebike commuter could be in my future, could make my grocery runs more fun and quicker. I don't see an e mt bike in my future unless I get hurt or maybe if they create the toy I'm imagining, adding just a few lbs and 100watts or so... maybe as I get closer to 70...

Cheers,
W
 

Rod9301

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By the way, 350 wats which my bike has, is 1/2 a horsepower, while a dirt bike is 30 it more. So these are different animals.
 

tball

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I"m learning more about watts, thx everyone. Thx for giving an estimate of 190 for my almost 3 hr mtb ride, Scott. I thought 133 seemed low, but I'm not the powerful, just efficient, so I thought maybe it was close...
Sorry, I thought the 133 you mentioned was directly measured and not estimated.

Also, if you are interested there is a big difference between average power and normalized power on a ride like that lots of climbing and descending. Descending with little output brings down the average a bunch. Normalized Power better represents your actual effort and should be substantially higher than the 133 average power estimated on that ride.

Off topic on MTB power meters: I don't have one either, but I do use an inexpensive PowerCal HR strap to estimate my power output when riding my bikes without a true power meter. The PowerCal gives a pretty good average and normalized power for the entire ride, like within 10%. It's nice to fill in those values where there otherwise would be gaps in my training log. The instantaneous power is way off, though, so the power reading is really only worthwhile when looking at averages after the ride IME.
 

martyg

Making fresh tracks
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Todd Wells came in to the shop to pick up his new e-bike the other day. If it is good enough for riders of his caliber...
 

WadeHoliday

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So, I have solid watt numbers now, and it adds to my confusion of these things being called human powered.
I climbed the alp duez on my new smart trainer, ave 155 watts. Why do we need 350 watts plus whatever our legs can create?...

Am I weak, I guess so, but I cover an awful lot of ground pretty dang fast with 155 watts w/ race results to show that.

I like 82 yr olds who ride by there own power.

Todd wells...he has plenty of power, obviously looking to cover huge amounts of territory on trails designed for motors.

Cheers!
W
 

martyg

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So, I have solid watt numbers now, and it adds to my confusion of these things being called human powered.
I climbed the alp duez on my new smart trainer, ave 155 watts. Why do we need 350 watts plus whatever our legs can create?...

Am I weak, I guess so, but I cover an awful lot of ground pretty dang fast with 155 watts w/ race results to show that.

I like 82 yr olds who ride by there own power.

Todd wells...he has plenty of power, obviously looking to cover huge amounts of territory on trails designed for motors.

Cheers!
W

155 watts is about what I put out on level ground at low, recovery intensities. You're not doing any significant climbs with that - well - maybe in a simulated world. Your smart trainer likely needs calibration.

Todd purchased as his commuting bike. It is not a mtn bike.
 

WadeHoliday

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155 watts is about what I put out on level ground at low, recovery intensities. You're not doing any significant climbs with that - well - maybe in a simulated world. Your smart trainer likely needs calibration.

Todd purchased as his commuting bike. It is not a mtn bike.

I think they make great sense as commuters.

another person that thinks I"m weak and slow... ! Maybe I need an ebike ;).

Cheers!
W
 

Rod9301

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You guys have it all wrong. You're looking at it like why do i need it? Instead, look at an ebike to double your downhill, which is really why we all mountain bike.
 

WadeHoliday

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Interesting, Rod.
I have been riding my mtb regularly since 1989 and have a pretty good idea of why I mt bike, and you telling me I have it all wrong is a bit suspect...

I also rode motorcycles pretty much every weekend from 4yrs old to 16 with my dad and understand the draw to power, and have no interest in that now.

cheers!
W
 

Pierre

Putting on skis
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What a civil discussion. I am not used to that with e bikes. I fell in love with e bikes when I built one for my disabled wife. I wanted a snow bike but the idea of very high rolling resistance was a drawback as I knew I would only ride for a few miles at a time. I built my own snow bike starting with a Titanium Night Train Bullet and adding a BBSHD crank drive. I am running full studded Wazia 26 X 4.6 tires. Drive train is SRAM eleven speed, 11 -42 rear. I have nine levels of assist with the first 7 setting being totally legal. The legal settings have more options at low levels starting at 50 watts and increasing to 250 watts with a few larger jumps after that to 750 watts at level 7. Level 8 has a 750 watt limit but a higher speed than 20mph and level 9 is flat out uncontrolled with a max of 1600 watts.

With the BBSHD the harder you pedal the less you get in assist. I do not have a throttle on my bike. I just finished a 15 mile ride through 6" of fresh snow over mostly grassy level terrain. My speed was about 7-10 mph and the watts used was 12 watt hours per mile. My assist level was 100- 200 watts for the most part. It was cold and I really didn't want to sweat too much. I still got a workout and was not exactly smooth riding.

I quit being a weight weenie and the bike has grown in weight since building it. Saddle bags to carry spares, clothing and food. lights, fenders, larger battery, heated saddle and grips, a mirror and more. The weight has increased from 48 lb to 67 lbs.

When riding single track I seldom exceed 200 watts assist as I am not comfortable with speed.. I can use all 750 watts riding loose sand and deep snow on uphill climbs. The unlimited setting is more for fun on private property or the quick run for shelter to avoid getting soaked.

My per year riding before the e bike was about 600 miles of single track and 1100 miles of road/ MPT. Now it is about 350 miles of single track 450 miles of snow and 4,000 miles or road/MPT. My fitness level is higher with an e bike.

I am currently building a trailer with a 2.8 kwh battery as the floor for longer distance remote travel on dirt/fire roads and pavement with few charging points. Range will exceed 200 miles

The e bike has opened up a lot of possibilities that I previously would never have considered.
 

Ken_R

Living the Dream
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:golfclap: :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:


Screen Shot 2019-05-25 at 9.18.11 AM.png
 

tball

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Yeah, a good video showing how it's not mountain biking. Looks like fun, but it's a different sport as they show through numerous clips in that video.
 

Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
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Yeah, a good video showing how it's not mountain biking. Looks like fun, but it's a different sport as they show through numerous clips in that video.
:nono::nono::nono:
 

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