eBike Electric MTB- Wow! Mike T's Take

[Philpug]

I don't think that is the way this is going to go. I mean look at the Dodge Hellcat. 700-something horsepower, so what do they do? Dodge Demon! I really don't see E-bike owners being like, "yeah, this is cool, but it would be better if it was slower".

We are seeing some possibly go this way. The LaPierre E-Zesty is 17.5KG with a smaller battery and 250w max and the Focus Raven2 hardtail at 15.5KG. Fazua is offering some superlight motors. While they still max out at the 25KPH, it could drop that down (as a concession) but I agree with you, I doubt it.

I would be fine with seeing MTB's drop to 15KPH, especially if the weights can come down, top speed while still allowing the city/road bikes that have assist stay higher.

 

[Ken_R]

I don't think that is the way this is going to go. I mean look at the Dodge Hellcat. 700-something horsepower, so what do they do? Dodge Demon! I really don't see E-bike owners being like, "yeah, this is cool, but it would be better if it was slower".

No, but if the ebike with less assist is significantly lighter then I see a market. There has to be some benefit of going with less hp. Also most ebikes look fugly IMHO and a smaller/lighter e system should help with improving looks. They will get there.

 

[Jersey Skier]

You could always get one of these.

 

[Tom K.]

You could always get one of these.

In the road bike segment at least, these lighter e-bikes weighing around 13 kg are coming soon.

Orbea and Willier each have one that uses an Ebikemotion hub motor and Focus and Pinarello each have one that uses the cool integrated battery and motor from Fazua.

On the road, hub drive vs. mid-drive is an interesting contest. The hub drives are generally quieter and a bit lighter, while the mid-drives give you more centralized mass. The hub drives make it very expensive to own two sets of wheels shod with different tires (since both wheels would need a motor), while mid-drives use fairly normal rear wheels. Finally, hub drive is much easier on the drivetrain parts, since none of the power flows through the chain and gears.

My wife will be purchasing one of these soon. She is looking forward to dusting me on climbs!

 

[Erik Timmerman]

He's paid to like these bikes, so maybe a bit biased.

 

[cantunamunch]

. Also most ebikes look fugly IMHO and a smaller/lighter e system should help with improving looks. .

I really hope you are all bracing yourselves for the imminent e-bike hipster movement. It's coming for sure.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

 

[Philpug]

Shuttle.

 

[Tricia]

Now I'm going to have that song in my head all night.

 

[blackke17]

great review.. i would love to try one of these ebikes. for that price tag ill stick to ripping on my KX250F - no doubt id be underwhelmed with the power from a dirt bikers perspective.

 

[Rod9301]

After s few rides on my haibike nduro.

It has 4 power levels . The highest is ridiculous, can't see where i would use it
Level 3 if almost too much on a technical single track, because the bike accelerates so fast, i end up bouncing all over rocks

Level 2 is great for climbing steep technical single track

I'm riding 3+ hours instead of 2+.

Average and Max heart rate is about the same as with my old specialized Enduro, which was 31 lbs.

But on the same ride, I'm using 30 percent less calories

So uphill, great.

Downhill is incredible

First, I'm not tired at all on top, so I'm riding down faster than before

Also, the bike accelerates downhill like crazy, because it weighs 53 lbs.
No difference in how nimble it is.
But the slightly higher travel { 180 front and rear) makes it really fun downhill.

On flat Rock gardens, all it takes is a half pedal stroke and you're flying.

So imo. The sweet spot for e mountain bikes is the long travel Enduro.

I can ride now 12 hours a week instead of 9, and ride twice the downhill.

And i get more exercise.

I don't see the downside.

Even cost, it seems comparable to a non e bike.

 

[WadeHoliday]

Happy fall!
Was drawn this this discussion based on Mike's thoughts...

Great write up, Mike!
I agree with your assessment, and really can't understand why these things are being so pushed so hard.
They are not mountain bikes, they are slow motorcycles with pedals, as you described.

maybe this just a rant, as most everyone has made up their mind on most things these days... but this ebike thing is not good for mountain biking or athletes in my opinion.

In an post on the cannondale ebike i looked at briefly before turning away in disappointment, Phil asked a couple questions;

who do they cheat?
If you want to be a mountain biker and are healthy, they cheat you!
If you want to eat too much, drink too much and are not fit, they allow you to go faster then you should, but you still won't get fit. riding a motorcycle on a mtb trail isn't cheating, it's just riding a slow motorcycle on a mtb trail.

do they abuse trails?
no question in my mind!
having 50lb bikes with 200mm rotors and extra speed beats up on trails. Most trails with this type of usage from real mt bikes are in downhill areas or shuttle friendly areas, and the trails are designed with this abuse in mind. taking heavy bikes with huge brakes out onto trails used for hiking and mountain biking beats them up, no question. Areas up here are already coming up with a new sign, looks like a bike with plug inside a circle with a line through it. They are banning them on more techy trails because they thrash them.

where can the tech go? who is it good for?

I do believe the aging or injured can benefit from some help to keep them getting out. A friend used one for year after coming off a couple years of bad injury. He is back to riding a mt bike, well again, but it was a recovery step.
But,
even for this, they are way too fast for what they should be good for.

In this thread, Phil says they are developing lighter lower powered ones, 250 watts?

Maybe they should develop even lower, maybe 50-100 watts?

why do they have to be so powerful. If a pro mountain biker can generate around 250 to 275 watts for 3-4 hrs, why do we need ebikes that double that?

My friend, also on this site, Dawgcatching is super powerful, says when racing hard/training, he generates 230watts for 3-4 hours. Seems an average mountain biker with a 50-100watt motor could travel the trail speed of much stronger riders while getting a good workout and actually feeling like they are mountain biking.

for me, that is the promise of the tech, but as epic says, it's not the way of humanity, way to reasonable i guess.

I also think safety is an issue, with having many people with limited riding/braking skills on bikes that can go so fast.

For trails open to motos, bike parks with dh trails and using it to shuttle instead of shuttle in places where that is key, this product category may be a good thing.
For mountain bike trails, and being a happy fit human who likes to breathe and take in the environment and be happier and fitter after, the current gen of e bikes is confused and will be very tough on the environment and culture of the trails.

cheers,
Wade

 

[Rod9301]

I don't see how e bike do more damage to the trails. You certainly cannot spin the rest tire when going uphill, and downhill it's the same thing.

I have a180 mm travel e bike and i love it

I get the same average and max heart rate , i just ride 3 1/2 hours instead of 2, so twice the downhill.

There is no downside .

And sure, some land managers are banning them but this is only because they were taken by surprise.

In Europe, they are legal on all single track where mountain bikes are allowed.
And the same thing will happen here.

It's a mistake to assume that only fat out of shape people will be riding them.

I'm neither and i love them because i can double my downhill and get more exercise.

On my regular bike i ridr 8-9 hours a week, now i ride 12-13 hours.

 

[Eleeski]

We went on a hike a few days ago in the San Diego hills. The trailhead was a popular spot for horses and bikes. Heading south, the trail was open to bikes. Heading north, no bikes because it had some wilderness designation. We hiked north and were surprised at the relatively poor condition of the trail. We have hiked other nearby popular with bikes trails that were in much better shape. I can't see how an ebike could be anywhere as damaging as a horse.

Horses seem to be widely allowed on trails (good!) while bikes (and ebikes) aren't (?!). The trails aren't remotely crowded but we usually see a few others, including bikes and horses along with the hikers.

The trails are a resource that is good to get used. Traditional uses (hiking and horses), modern uses (mountain bikes) and new uses (ebikes) can coexist and might encourage more trail use (and enjoyment). Trail maintenance would be less burdensome because it's spread over more users.

Having never yet ridden an ebike, I love them if they get more people off the couch.

Eric

 

[WadeHoliday]

I don't see how e bike do more damage to the trails. You certainly cannot spin the rest tire when going uphill, and downhill it's the same thing.

I have a180 mm travel e bike and i love it

I get the same average and max heart rate , i just ride 3 1/2 hours instead of 2, so twice the downhill.

There is no downside .

And sure, some land managers are banning them but this is only because they were taken by surprise.

In Europe, they are legal on all single track where mountain bikes are allowed.
And the same thing will happen here.

It's a mistake to assume that only fat out of shape people will be riding them.

I'm neither and i love them because i can double my downhill and get more exercise.

On my regular bike i ridr 8-9 hours a week, now i ride 12-13 hours.

as I said, no chance of swaying opinion, especially for someone who has bought an e bike. your trails may be great for them, if you in europe with huge vert and lots of straights. In lake Tahoe, they accelerate degradation of trails, just like DH's bikes do. they are great for shuttle trails and DH bike parks.

You also get a great workout riding moto, I have nothing against that, but it's not the same.

I don't assume only fat and out of shape people will go for assistance, just people who haven't embraced the soul of cycling and the pain that comes with it. In the Cannondale ebike thread, Phil and others admit to not liking mt biking because of the climbing. I understand that it takes time to bond with it, but as with any endurance sport, that aspect is where the magic is. Riding an ebike will likely never allow those to find that magic/meditation/connectedness that is moving through the mountains under your own power and motivation.

As I said, I do hope the industry decides that ebikes should be bikes and not motos and bring the power and weight down on their offerings so trail speed and usage are more human-powered like and trail abuse and speed differentials narrow.

Enjoy your long travel e bike, I am not here to convince you, just pointing out that most of the lifelong mtn bikers I talk to don't think this is a healthy substitute and when all the overpowered, tough to maintain ebikes are being sold at second hand stores after they don't get ridden, we'll still be out on the trails enjoying the movement meditation and fixing trails.

cheers,
W

 

[Philpug]

as I said, no chance of swaying opinion, especially for someone who has bought an e bike. your trails may be great for them, if you in europe with huge vert and lots of straights. In lake Tahoe, they accelerate degradation of trails, just like DH's bikes do. they are great for shuttle trails and DH bike parks.

You also get a great workout riding moto, I have nothing against that, but it's not the same.

I don't assume only fat and out of shape people will go for assistance, just people who haven't embraced the soul of cycling and the pain that comes with it. In the Cannondale ebike thread, Phil and others admit to not liking mt biking because of the climbing. I understand that it takes time to bond with it, but as with any endurance sport, that aspect is where the magic is. Riding an ebike will likely never allow those to find that magic/meditation/connectedness that is moving through the mountains under your own power and motivation.

As I said, I do hope the industry decides that ebikes should be bikes and not motos and bring the power and weight down on their offerings so trail speed and usage are more human-powered like and trail abuse and speed differentials narrow.

Enjoy your long travel e bike, I am not here to convince you, just pointing out that most of the lifelong mtn bikers I talk to don't think this is a healthy substitute and when all the overpowered, tough to maintain ebikes are being sold at second hand stores after they don't get ridden, we'll still be out on the trails enjoying the movement meditation and fixing trails.

cheers,
W

Wade,

You didn't answer his question, how does it do more damage? The weight? If an ebike is 50lb and a regular trail bike is 30lb, that is a 20 lb difference so I weight 25 lb more more than you...at least 25lb...does that mean I do more damage to the trail than you?

You reference the up hill is pain and you refer to it being the magic of mountain biking...I am sorry, but it is not the magic for me, never will be, never was. I prefer a long cross coutnry ride with some ups and downs. I am sorry but your magic is not universal and while you are not here here to convice @Rod9301, he is not here to convince you either. As fas as me...how I find enjoyment from a ride and how I get it is irrelevant to what you perceive your enjoyment is achieved also. Note, I just purchased a new mountain recently and it wasn't an ebike...not that I am looking for your approval either .

 

[Rod9301]

as I said, no chance of swaying opinion, especially for someone who has bought an e bike. your trails may be great for them, if you in europe with huge vert and lots of straights. In lake Tahoe, they accelerate degradation of trails, just like DH's bikes do. they are great for shuttle trails and DH bike parks.

You also get a great workout riding moto, I have nothing against that, but it's not the same.

I don't assume only fat and out of shape people will go for assistance, just people who haven't embraced the soul of cycling and the pain that comes with it. In the Cannondale ebike thread, Phil and others admit to not liking mt biking because of the climbing. I understand that it takes time to bond with it, but as with any endurance sport, that aspect is where the magic is. Riding an ebike will likely never allow those to find that magic/meditation/connectedness that is moving through the mountains under your own power and motivation.

As I said, I do hope the industry decides that ebikes should be bikes and not motos and bring the power and weight down on their offerings so trail speed and usage are more human-powered like and trail abuse and speed differentials narrow.

Enjoy your long travel e bike, I am not here to convince you, just pointing out that most of the lifelong mtn bikers I talk to don't think this is a healthy substitute and when all the overpowered, tough to maintain ebikes are being sold at second hand stores after they don't get ridden, we'll still be out on the trails enjoying the movement meditation and fixing trails.

cheers,
W

Dude, i live in squaw, and i don't care mountain biking as an endurance sport. For me, it's a skill sport. Uphill technical or downhill technical

I feel sorry for people that haven't experienced the pleasure of doubling the downhill experience, simply because of stubbornness or dinner misplaced elitist" i can go uphill faster than you" attitude

It's similar to bc vs resort skiing.
I do both, and i don't understand people that do only one .

 

[tball]

You didn't answer his question, how does it do more damage?

Twice the downhill causes twice the damage.

i just ride 3 1/2 hours instead of 2, so twice the downhill.

the pleasure of doubling the downhill experience

 

[Rod9301]

Twice the downhill causes twice the damage.

Yeah, but trails are meant for people to enjoy them.

If you don't believe in this concept, maybe you should limit your biking to 2 hours a week.

 

[tball]

Yeah, but trails are meant for people to enjoy them.

If you don't believe in this concept, maybe you should limit your biking to 2 hours a week.

It depends on the trail.

On some trails, motorized vehicles are not a problem. On others, motorized bikes going 2-3 times faster uphill and double the downhill traffic is a huge problem.

Trail damage is a minor issue compared to the concern about additional traffic and higher speeds annoying other trail users and getting all bikes banned.