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Dakine

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Equal tipping eah?
Well riddle me this...
The inside ski carves a radius that is 1-2 feet less than the outside ski.
If it is to truly carve it must either be loaded more heavily or tipped to a greater edge angle than the outside ski.
Ski companies have tried to address this bit of physics with limited success using asymmetrical skis.
My experience is that I have to open my inside knee to tip the inside ski an extra bit if I want it to make a true carve with both skis.
 

MarkP

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Don't you get a bit bored? Every turn just like the previous ?

Applying the Rule of Inverse... since few of my turns are the same I rarely get bored. :yahoo:
 

Doby Man

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Equal tipping eah?
Well riddle me this...
The inside ski carves a radius that is 1-2 feet less than the outside ski.
If it is to truly carve it must either be loaded more heavily or tipped to a greater edge angle than the outside ski.
Ski companies have tried to address this bit of physics with limited success using asymmetrical skis.
My experience is that I have to open my inside knee to tip the inside ski an extra bit if I want it to make a true carve with both skis.


@Dakine, you do bring up a good point, but for me, it is significant for a different reason. While there is some mathematically geometric theoretic truth to your statement, I don’t believe it is severe enough to make much of a difference. To create a set of RR tracks that are truly parallel/equidistant throughout, the inside ski must bend with the same DIRT (duration, intensity, rate and timing) as the outside ski. Yet, the left and right ski are being operated with diametrically opposed sets of anatomy and a significantly uneven weight distribution and therefore must be treated differently in order to achieve the same carve which requires independent movement from the feet to keep both skis carving in unison, or, with the same DIRT.

How do we get the inside ski to carve the same radius (or ever so slightly tighter to address your point) when the outside ski if the outside ski gets the lion’s share of the weight/pressure/inertia? The much less weighted inside ski must utilize more leverage to get it to bend without the power of weight/pressure just like when we use leverage in the place of power in other ways. Slight over tipping is one of three directions of independent movement of the inside ski/foot to get it to hook-up, engage or bend with the same DIRT as the pressure dominant outside ski. The other two are more tip pressure on the inside than the outside (inside pull back or more inside cuff pressure) and a slight convergence of the inside ski to the outside ski (inside counter steering). This (3 way) inside foot motor pattern agenda requires a sophisticated level of independent movement/use between the inside and outside foot.

The slight over tipping of the inside ski that you mention is also a great way to achieve the equal tipping we see from excellent skiers via something I refer to as the “taut string theory”. Imagine a string that is tied to both knees at the distance a skier would wish to maintain between their knees throughout the turn. The goal is to keep that string taut throughout the entire turn. When we lead tipping with the outside ski, we find that it is difficult to keep the string taut. However, when we lead the tipping with the inside ski, we find it is much easier to keep that string taut and, as a result, achieve equal tipping more easily visually indicated by parallel shafts. Furthermore, when we lead the tipping effort with the inside ski and, in the process, achieve slight over tipping of the inside ski, we find that our anatomy will only allow a few degrees of over tipping as opposed to a multitude of degrees that the outside ski is capable of undertipping (relative to the inside ski) which is A framing. This actually allows the inside tipped ski/leg to “pull” the outside ski/leg over with it while maintaining the geometric consistency we would seek as well as reaching higher angles more easily. This is why leading with inside tipping is so effective in maintaining equally tipped skis. I am not talking about “moving” the knee as a focus. A well disciplined ankle keeps the shin primarily perpendicular to the base of the ski throughout the turn except but for a few degrees of inside lateral ankle movement/tipping, or “eversion”, to further “tweak” the inside ski into the turn with a touch more tipping. Though, at the same time, “inversion” of the outside ankle is not recommended as perfect perpendicularity of the shin to the base of the ski is the equalized stacking we need for the outside leg to foot most or all the pressure created in the turn with the most power possible.
 

JESinstr

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@Doby Man
I would appreciate your thoughts on the following:
Consider the "Get over it" drill. Understanding that it is only a drill, It is interesting that the inside ski does not play a significant role in the carving action until after the fall line where edge angles continue to increase via inclination and terrain angles reverse. This drill also positions the inside as an equal "partner" ski at completion of the turn providing a solid BOS to "get over it" at transition.

Where I am going with this is that we might be too focused on leading with the inside at initiation. Maybe it is more a matter of clearing it out of the way until it becomes viable.


 

Tom Holtmann

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@Doby Man thanks for the post. Very informative. Sometimes I feel that when I focus on counter steering with the inside ski it is at odds with over tipping (or focusing on tipping) of the inside ski (i.e. there may be a tendency to flatten the ski) and vice versa. Is this me or is there a tension between the feelings between these two?
 

Doby Man

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@JESinstr: OK … you asked for it. So, even though the “value” of every motor pattern that a skier executes must pass through to how the ski is manipulated with tipping and pressure, because the get over it drill is more about the CoM/BoS relationship rather than edging, I would steer away from that as an example related to my point above. Two drills I might use as an example or proof of efficacy are one ski rollerblade turns and the white pass. There is a term, “blended white pass”, which consists of incorporating diluted white pass turn characteristics into regular carving technique. The one ski rollerblade turn is an example of turning and using both edges of each ski without disengagement and a fully weighted release/transition. It requires a constant rate of tipping where the ski is unbent for a tenth of a second or less. It is my opinion that, not until we have mastered single ski independent balance on each ski can we more deftly regulate a “progressive” transfer rate of pressure distribution without accidently putting too much weight/pressure on the inside ski. When we cannot self regulate a progressive transfer such as 80/20 - 70/30 - 60/40 - 50/50 - 40/60 - 30/70 - 20/80, (a weighted release/transition with no disengagement) it is much easier to simply go: 100/ 0 - 0/100 on - off - on - off - on - off - on - off … lots of vertical motion which most often results in a longer unweighted transition where there is a big loss of momentum changing direction all the while performing unnecessarily laborious disengagements and re-engagements within e-a-c-h and e-v-e-r-y turn. Ugh!

When we look at the ski tracks, which is the most detailed and telling record of final ski to snow interaction outcome, of an undisrupted, non-anomalistic, modern and elite ski race turn, we see consistent evidence of left and right ski tipping, bending and engagement of the “same” direction, timing, duration and fore/aft placement. The only difference is weight/pressure distribution. What I mean about an undisrupted and non-anomalistic race turn is that many of the disruptions and anomalies inherent within the forced radius and speed requirements of a typical race course, elements that are almost non-existent in most typical elite technical freeskiing examples (hero snow), the skis are forced to disengage contact with the ground as well as to prioritize outside engagement whenever possible and, the result of which, often results in only the inside ski being disengaged.

The way I see it, the reason why elite technical freeskiers create a far more dynamic aesthetic than an elite ski racers freeskiing during race season, is for two reasons. 1. When elite racers are freeskiing, they are maintaining ingrained motor patterns and associated DIRT that are much more relevant to skiing in the race course than out. We see more a focus on things like good stacking and centered balance from racers where, somewhat boring aesthetically compared to what we see from technical freeski pros: more quick, rhythmic and progressively tipped high edge angles. As an example, you will rarely witness an elite racer spending a day skiing bumps, hucking the BC or making turns like Reilly Mcglashan because they are not interested in expanding thus diluting their ingraining away from their racing goals. Many racers wait until spring or retire their race skis before they go Bonzi, et al. We, I, almost never see them lift their inside ski off the ground outside of the course as the skis are almost always bending together and sucking to the ground like a Hoover. 2. The freedom of speed, radius, rhythm and flow outside of the race course allow much more control over the DIRT of a turn than for a racer. This means there is opportunity for more ski engagement (including weighted transitions, no vertical manipulation of the CoM and smooth, progressive weight shifts) of both skis and, as a result, more control over the ever changing direction of our momentum. One turn blends into the next and transitory “shifts” or “seams” in the aesthetic of the transition between each turn disappear. When we “relevantly” utilize ski race technique in an environment of freedom, without the binds of forced speed and radius, we are allowed to maintain a constant dynamic pressure engagement from both skis throughout the entire arc in almost every turn.

With this kind of turn, much more of the effort, movement and kinesthesis originally residing in the body is taken over by the ski as the ankle and foot become the “kinetic leader” of the turn and where the assignment of the DIRT that radiates upward through the kinetic chain takes place. We don’t ski ski “with” the feet but we ski “from” the feet in a manner that expresses a sequential kinetic priority directed from the bottom to the top. Current traditionally conventional instruction will place this kinetic priority in the hips and the upper body. When it comes down to it, unless we are skiing in a race course, moguls, steeps, trees, super short turns on semi steeps or anything funky or chaotic and we are just making carved technical freeskiing turns on groomers, there is no reason to disengage the ski from the surface at all. Here, constant disengagement and re-engagement is simply wasted effort. There is also no reason to stop turning by delaying the tipping motion or lingering on a flat ski at all between turns. With constant engagement, we can always be turning. Disrupted engagement represents a measure of travel where we are relinquishing control of what should be a constant pressure engagement of both skis that are able to apply a constant direction direction change to our momentum (CoM) which further represents a constant state of flow. Rhythm is sequential and flow is a constant. Anyway, these are the things I interpret from the “higher sources” and how I apply them to my own skiing that has worked for me the best … so far.


@Tom Holtmann, notice how counter steering an inside ankle lifted off the ground while sitting in a chair makes your inside foot tip even more to the outside as the ankle inverts and pushes outward the navicular (idyllically against the inside of a boot shell). The foot rotates to the inside, the inside foot sole tilts up and the outside sole tilts down, the ball gets lower than the heel and the ankle presses to the outside, all in one movement that translates through the boot to the inside ski and correspondingly resulting in the extra tipping, convergently counter steered with more pressure on the shovel on the inside ski. The ankle is biomechanically designed to carve the inside ski so that we can press it into engagement with “positional” leverage rather than the weight/pressure that must go to the outside. Don’t pick it up and let it play with its big brother, the outside ski. Keep in mind that, the wider your stance, the more difficult it is for the foot to countersteer. When the skis are only hip width apart, our shafts are at their “most” parallel and the skis are more correctly aligned for equal tipping, whether equally flat in transition or equally angled at its highest tipping. The only time the skis should separate further apart that the width off your hip is during vertical separation of the feet when the skis are tipped high.

What is great about this technique is that you can learn all the coordination for the feet, ankles and corresponding hip mobility faster and better than in ski boots in the off season. The inline skating double push trains what is called an “underpush” which is very similar to carving the inside ski. That said, because we are not talking about skis, counter steering, over tipping and more forward pressure does not occur with the inside skate, though, this will teach the coordination required to do it.


 

markojp

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We don’t ski ski “with” the feet but we ski “from” the feet in a manner that expresses a sequential kinetic priority directed from the bottom to the top.

Current traditionally conventional instruction will place this kinetic priority in the hips and the upper body.


Sentence 1, exactly!
:beercheer:

Sentence 2, if you want to fail your exam, you'll follow this. FWIW, it's not current in my experience at all, it's just poor instruction.

ogsmile


Cool vid! Thanks for sharing!

More :beercheer:
 

JESinstr

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@Doby Man I really appreciate your response. You make many excellent points! Couple of ad hoc comments/observations if I may.

Your are right that the Get over it Drill has a big CoM/BoS component but IMO, this is a prereq to the controlled implementation of the edging/pressure points you made which is why the PSIA skills diagram is the way it is. You are also right that the drill really did not have a place regarding the subject about which you originally wrote. The good news is that I went back and re-read you post several times and picked up on things I missed!

Like @markojp commented , your are dead on with your "From the Feet" point and that phrase has just be added to my quiver. But I also agree with Mark on his "poor instruction comment"

Which brings me to an observation.

In your response to me, you spent time clearly differentiating between racers and freeskiers. I think this was a important distinction to make. Many who participate here are coaching racers, refining their students ability to shave a hundredth of a second off their run. Others, are working every day in the trenches doing their best to get that never ever up the chair so that they will come back another time and keep this industry viable. In the middle are the masses, many of which have developed movement patterns that will forever keep them on the intermediate plateau. Unfortunately, this large group of skiers requires the painful and difficult process of unlearning which many are not willing to acknowledge and pay for because after all, they are making it down the hill, enjoying nature, the experience etc.

In the posts between you and @Dakine the word "Slight' was used a number of times and you rightly made the distinction between ankle orientated movement vs knee movement . My concern is that most of the folks coming to the 6 pages this thread will miss those key critical points and the movement patterns they may invoke as a result of this thread will be anything but slight which can negatively affect the fundamental CoM/Bos relationship with and the performance of the outside ski.

Again thanks for taking the time to respond.
 

Average Joe

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FullSizeRender.jpg

Mark Engel rolling the pinkie toe to the snow! OK, I know, it's only one screenshot of one turn....but he looks pretty comfortable with it.

Modern skiing on shaped skis utilizes a hip width stance with parallel edge angles, rather than the "old school" (circa 2000) shoulder width stance. Rolling the inside edge over helps maintain stance width, and quicker/ smoother transitions.
 

Doby Man

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Talk about feet first! This video of Eddie Matzger is amazing. Thank you, @Doby Man.

This is a good time of year to think about skate to ski and, not alpine skate to ski, but, speed skate to ski. (inline not ice)

Metzger's is a demonstration of the very motor control/coordination that we should wish to execute in our ski boots. While Matzger is demonstrating (on a skate w/absolutely no cuff support) a very high level of motor control (from the knee down), there are many drill modifications that make them more accessible to anyone with advanced intermediate and above ski ability and basic/advanced beginner skate skills including using a full (tall) plastic booted skate with at least a top buckle, ski poles/other balance aids and conducting drills two footed before using single footed where applicable, etc.

Personally, I regularly employ the double push but with taller plastic skates to mimic the leverage pattern used in ski boots and it translates very directly to my goals on skis much more than any other off-ski exercise I have tried and that is out there. I believe it actually targets the coordination skill dev that we seek for alpine skiing much better than what we can do in overly supportive ski boots themselves that have the opposite, "atrophying", effect. I coached a couple seasons of alpine inline slalom summer race camps at Stowe about 20 years ago and I am the first one to tell anybody that inline speed skating technique is ten times more relevant to modern alpine carving than alpine (downhill) inline skating ever was to alpine ski technique of the late 90's. I would say that I am at least an advanced intermediate recreational inline speed skater. While I can only perform only a fraction of Metzger’s coordination on skates shown in the above video, that small fraction has doubled my ski carving ability. Primarily, dual foot tipping angle awareness/proprioception, lower leg mobility under a low gliding CoM, a high level of hip mobility for upper-lower separation, and momentum management (timing for maintaining speed and power) are key factors that translate directly to the development of high performance alpine ski retraction turns. Skating up hill teaches excellent momentum management as we lose all momentum as soon as a timing mistake has been made and are handed a dose of negative reinforcement as we are forced to double our efforts to regain momentum and get back up to speed.

One thing to keep in mind is that while inline speed skate coordination overlaps the coordination needed for modern carving, the speed skate motor patterns are responsible for generating forward propulsion in a manner that alpine skiing does not require. What this generally means is that they are the same movements and coordination as skiing but that are much more “proactive” as compared to “passive” for alpine ski gravity generated development of forces. The development of these proactive motor patterns will “wake up” the proprioception in your feet in a way that will lead to stronger, quicker, smarter and more mobile feet and ankles in your ski boot. It is also why alpine inline skating motor patterns are too passive to make much difference for your skiing.

Things to keep in mind when choosing a skate for alpine ski training:

1. Cuff: no - low - mid - high

2. Boot material: All leather, leather bottom w/plastic cuff - all plastic

3. Closure: laces - # of velcro straps - # of plastic buckles

4. Wheelset heights & BoS length: (# of wheels x wheel height in mm) 5 x 80 - 5 x 90 - 4 x 100 - 4 x 110 - 3 - 125

A mix of all the above options 1 through 3 determine the ratio of mobility vs support. Depending on ability and training goals, these are the factors used to determine choice of skate. The wheel height chosen will determine the ratio of carving leverage vs a shrinking lateral balance point. The length of wheel set will determine the ratio of fore/aft stability vs rotary mobility. Also, while a no or low skate cuff will make the ankle amazingly strong and balanced, a high plastic cuff with a hard plastic buckle or two will mimic the multiple contact pattern of a ski boot with which to execute similar leverage. A high/supportive plastic cuff w/buckle is the the best place to start.
 

skier

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View attachment 45644
Mark Engel rolling the pinkie toe to the snow! OK, I know, it's only one screenshot of one turn....but he looks pretty comfortable with it.

Modern skiing on shaped skis utilizes a hip width stance with parallel edge angles, rather than the "old school" (circa 2000) shoulder width stance. Rolling the inside edge over helps maintain stance width, and quicker/ smoother transitions.

Look very carefully at that photo. The inside ski is not bent. The inside ski could not be arcing tighter than the outside ski if it's not bent more than the outside ski. What that photo shows is that most or all of the weight is on the outside ski. Therefore, the inside ski is inconsequential, and it's just a matter of keeping it from getting in the way. It looks to me that the extra tipping is just to fit the inside boot between his outer leg and the snow. You can clearly see a gap between the edge of the ski and the snow under his boot. At that moment, that gap proves that the inside ski is not carving, and therefore tipping more or less can not affect the turning radius of that ski.
 

Fishbowl

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Doby you inspired me to go out and buy a pair of inline skates. Look forward to training with them.

Take them in the skate park to really improve your dynamic balance.
 

markojp

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Look very carefully at that photo. The inside ski is not bent. The inside ski could not be arcing tighter than the outside ski if it's not bent more than the outside ski. What that photo shows is that most or all of the weight is on the outside ski. Therefore, the inside ski is inconsequential, and it's just a matter of keeping it from getting in the way. It looks to me that the extra tipping is just to fit the inside boot between his outer leg and the snow. You can clearly see a gap between the edge of the ski and the snow under his boot. At that moment, that gap proves that the inside ski is not carving, and therefore tipping more or less can not affect the turning radius of that ski.
:popcorn:

(Looking at one moment of one turn is a slippery slope... Pardon the pun. Or a la Plato, zebras have four legs, and horses have 4 lehs, therefore all horses are zebras. )
 

Doby Man

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:popcorn:

(Looking at one moment of one turn is a slippery slope... Pardon the pun. Or a la Plato, zebras have four legs, and horses have 4 lehs, therefore all horses are zebras. )

So true that skiing is so highly contextual, what may be true in turn phase 1 may not be true in turn phase 2 or 3. As I see it, typically, a weighted/engaged over tipping initiation of the pinky toe edge happens towards the end of transition through turn phase one (initiation). Around by turn phase 2.5, the belly of the turn, where the racer in the SL photo looks like he is, that is when the most outside pressure is going to be and where we often see the inside ski lifted if it is going to happen at all. Just because it is difficult to engage both skis all the time in a race course doesn't mean it is not possible to take much more advantage of more and constant engagement of both skis while freeskiing on open terrain. It's akin to sailing "full sail".

When I see that overtipping "articulation" of the inside ski when it is off the ground, I refer to it as a "phantom" move that suggests it is just a "ghosting" maneuver that while, puts the body in the correct position, its effect is limited because there is no real engagement with the snow (no bending). (see "phantom move" PMTS). In the racer's case above, I believe that his unweighted over tipping is a residual result of carving and bending his inside ski in turn phase 1. I also refer to a pole swing with no real contact engagement with the ground as a phantom pole plant. While it helps position the body, it lacks the engagement impact of a more forceful pole plant that provides little to no data to the skier regarding inertia/momentum and its direction. When our pole plant delivers either not enough or too much of expected impact, we adjust without thinking ... at least for those who have pole planted a hundred thousand times, or whatever.
 
Last edited:

Dakine

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My take on that photo is that the skier is in the phase of his turn where the inside ski is just in the way.
His outside leg is totally stacked to handle the load and his inside leg is about to block the gate very powerfully.
Gatekeepers hate these turns.
As soon as he is past the gate he will engage the inside ski to bend it and then start rolling it over without losing the arc.
At least that's the way it is supposed to work.
 

skier

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I agree that we can't know what he's doing in other phases of the turn.

There are advantages to an early weight shift to the outside ski that maybe should be pointed out in a pros and cons discussion of pinky leads the way. There's twice as much pressure at your disposal compared to equal weight on both skis. There's allot you can do with that pressure such as bending the tip to make a sharp turn. Or, use shovel pressure for speed control in the bumps or extra edge pressure for digging into ice. If you decide not to use that extra pressure for anything, there's nothing lost. You can still arc a sweet turn without any of that complexity necessary to get two skis to work together.

It used to be necessary to use that extra pressure to bend straight skis, and so the argument goes that it's no longer necessary with shaped skis. Sometimes that's true, but there are still times that extra pressure helps out for performance skiing.
 

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