Pinkie Leads the Way (learning to ski on shaped skis)

[Rod9301]

Or by tipping it more to turn sharper, or by tipping it less to turn less on hard snow...or by weighting it less during tansitions so you could weight it more in the belly of the turn in soft snow.. No need to confine oneself.

Very true

 

[Mike King]

I meant you don't need to Steer

So, question for you, what do you mean by steer? It seems to me that we have imprecise definitions of some terms, which is unsurprising...

 

[Rod9301]

So, question for you, what do you mean by steer? It seems to me that we have imprecise definitions of some terms, which is unsurprising...

Very true.
Steering, to me, means rotating the ski intentionally, topically at the top of the turn.

 

[Doby Man]

Ah yes, it's all in the transition....and that there are many inputs and variables, equipment, snow conditions, physical fitness.....
I'm agreement that the movements "come from" the skis, in the past 20 -25 years we've seen big changes, the old style top - down approach is largely gone in top recreational skiers, and all successful racers. However as much of what the skis can do is highly reliant on the upper body positioning and movements (or lack of) we still need to maintain focus.
I focus on racing as the technique is the most efficient - the pure carved turn is the Holy Grail of the successful racer. Plus, we have lots of video to look at....
My comment "Hirscher (and Kristofferson, Shiffrin, and the other modern top skiers) don't need to maintain any weight on their "inside" ski, many SL
Phase I's start with, as we see in the videos, inside edge engagement." relates to this move:
A good example of prioritizing inside ski tipping over rotary and edging. Hirscher has many, many moves in his quiver! During the same race at Kitz in 2016, archrival Hendrick won the day, with this recovery:

In both examples, their inside edges engage first from a no weight transition, and the transfer to the outside ski is so smooth it requires super slow mo to appreciate.

One of the biggest challenges for developing racers is developing high edge angles in both skis. Often, transitions are truncated with early edge sets, rotational movements, and lack of upper body separation (aka counterbalance). Building skills and confidence that allows the skier to comfortably roll both skis over should be a high priority.
Free skiing on groomed snow is a great place to practice and perfect these movements. Tops on the list, I think, is a relaxed transition (I prefer not to use "retraction" as that describes a more active movement).
I sometimes describe it as a a feeling akin to the moment when you relax to sit down on a comfy sofa or chair. It's very helpful to, as you describe, keep things close to the snow - "sucking terrain like a vacuum cleaner." A great training drill is to use a spine or wave track, or any handy rise or roller. I'll purposely time my turn so the transition is at the highest point of the rise, and practice minimizing pressure through relaxation as passing over the rise. It's a great drill and a lot of fun as well.

I agree with everything here: You have written of some of the same things a number of different ways and have been very consistent over time in a way that indicates to me you know this stuff pretty well. Those clips are fantastically relevant and explain just about everything I am jabbering on about. Nice find. Hirscher is the best white pass turner on the world cup. That dude is a muscle bound cat. I appreciate how Kristofferson rides the inside ski with so much lead and then makes such a deliberate move to line his shafts up before the next turn. These guys are both "fast twitching' their way down the hill. All that repetitive training, even with all the talent in the world,you pretty much have to give up your life for it.

So, question for you, what do you mean by steer? It seems to me that we have imprecise definitions of some terms, which is unsurprising...

I have often pondered the use of the word “steering” especially in terms of how skis have changed. “Steer/ing” is a common term, the definition of which is: to guide the course of (something in motion) by a rudder, helm, wheel, etc. I do not believe there is any alpine technical authority significant enough to claim that word for a specific meaning across the board of all alpine technical language.

Rotary edging (twisting movement of the feet) can occur while the skier is moving in a straight line while skidding and/or using speed control. Think: corredor slip drills with a lot of foot rotary but, no change in course of direction. By authority vested in the above logic, with no change in course of direction, there would be no steering. Therefore, rotary (of the foot) cannot always define steering.

However, as things have evolved, “tipping” for carving tends to force the change of a skier’s course of direction more specifically and directly than compared to foot rotary and therefore, to me, now holds more relevance to the word “steering”. Of course tipping and rotary often occur together, with the “two” types of steering motor patterns blended. We can run the gamut of tipping a pure carve to a fully skidded rotary (skis perpendicular to direction of travel) ratio whereby a “brushed carve” is a blend somewhere between the middle of the scale and the pure carve extreme.

Some have referred to tipping as “passive rotary” vs twisting as “active rotary”. While, if twisting may very well be considered active rotary, tipping should then be considered more as proactive rotary instead. There is nothing passive about tipping whereby skidding, or “giving in to the forces of the turn” seems to be the definition of passivity.

 

[Rod9301]

A brushed carve doesn't involve any rotary action. It simply requires less edge angle on the outside ski.

 

[François Pugh]

I've learned the meaning of steering in the context of ski technique the same way a child learns to talk, through how other's seem to use it in context. What I've arrived at at this point is steering is causing the skis to rotate from their direction of travel along (parallel to) their edges via the direct application of forces and torques applied from the skier through the boot-ski interface, as opposed to altering the skis direction of pointing by the creation of reaction forces whereby the snow applies the forces to the skis. Steering can best be accomplished via a forced rotation of the feet on a flat or near flat ski, or by unequal forces at the front and rear of the ski. Many techniques exist to cause these forces to occur, some of which the skier need not even realize they are applying the steering (e.g. weight shift to one ski while pulling back other ski with skis flat). Some of the same techniques can be used to create reaction forces from the snow at the tip or tail that affect the skis path, instead of just moving the tip or tail in that direction - it's complicated. You can push your ski tips straighter down hill turning less or push them so they bite in, bend more and turn more with only a slight change at the controls.

 

[skier]

This probably isn't the formal definition, but I would say steering is just applying torque to the skis. They don't actually have to rotate more than you get just by carving, and here is why I think this is important. Before the skis have reached the critical edge angle for carving, they don't carve in a pure sense. There's a little bit of steering that goes on to keep them on track. I don't think most people are even aware how they are applying a bit of torque to get a clean arc to arc carve. If they applied equal torque in the opposite direction it would result in some messed up turns. There's always some steering going on in addition to tipping, and having just the right touch is what makes a great carved turn. Typically, people associate steering with turns that clearly aren't carving, but that's just allot of steering. I imagine I would get an argument with a statement like this, because it's such a mantra to tip the ski and let it do all the work. Certainly over steering is a big problem with people that can't carve, but I would say in reality, it's tip the ski and let it do much of the work. Since there's a little bit of torque applied when carving, there's a continuum of steering from perfect carving to pivoting which gives us the ability to dial up whatever turn we need for the circumstances by adjusting the amount of torque we use.

 

[JESinstr]

Carving is a state of circular travel....Steering is the pursuit of carving

 

[James]

Carving is a state of circular travel....Steering is the pursuit of carving

You know that's not true.

 

[JESinstr]

You know that's not true.

And why not?

 

[Rod9301]

A brushed carve doesn't involve any rotary action. It simply requires less edge angle on the outside ski.

 

[Doby Man]

To me, a “race brushed carve” is skidding a bent ski, but in the forward direction of CoM travel rather than the direction of the bent shovel which is something very difficult to do and something I typically only notice in WC SL and GS. It is when the momentum of travel overpowers the direction of a bent shovel underneath and typically only performed on hard ice as it would slow the racer digging in on soft snow. While the ski may be fully bent, the CoM’s powerful forward direction of travel pulls the bent edge straight through without “arcing” the ski in the direction of the bent shovel. The shovel is deflecting beyond the direction of travel. A highly forceful maneuver and not an output from direct and specifically purposeful input. It is one where the strongest force wins the battle over the manipulation of the ski. With my above race brushed carve definition, I think @Rod is correct that rotary is not present in this form of “brushed” carve.

However, as @Francois Pugh states in regards to context and because there is no overriding authority of technical language, I will often write in reference to the “prevailing” way a term is used. He also make a good point regarding “passive” steering in which the foot is simply rotating “with” the turning ski. ("active" vs "passive" is one of many examples of subtly shifting context for which many will fail to consider) So, to me, there is the “race” brushed carve and the “recreational” brushed carve. Because almost all non racers could never perform the “race brushed carve” definition that I use above, the one that Benjamin Raich was known for performing/perfecting early on, I find that many skiers and instructors like to use the brushed carve definition of the maneuver that is available to recreational experts which is skidding a bent ski but slightly away from the direction of travel which means that there is going to be some rotation of the foot in the process either because the shovel or tail becomes displaced from the arc that a bent ski wants to travel. I believe that this is the “recreational brushed carve” that PMTS promotes with its students where the race version is too difficult and unnecessary in free skiing. Below is HH’s brushed carve for which foot rotary is obviously present:

HH Brushed Carve:


Here, there are a number of examples for the race brushed carve that can only happen in such a powerful context:

 

[Rod9301]

To me, a “race brushed carve” is skidding a bent ski, but in the forward direction of CoM travel rather than the direction of the bent shovel which is something very difficult to do and something I typically only notice in WC SL and GS. It is when the momentum of travel overpowers the direction of a bent shovel underneath and typically only performed on hard ice as it would slow the racer digging in on soft snow. While the ski may be fully bent, the CoM’s powerful forward direction of travel pulls the bent edge straight through without “arcing” the ski in the direction of the bent shovel. The shovel is deflecting beyond the direction of travel. A highly forceful maneuver and not an output from direct and specifically purposeful input. It is one where the strongest force wins the battle over the manipulation of the ski. With my above race brushed carve definition, I think @Rod is correct that rotary is not present in this form of “brushed” carve.

However, as @Francois Pugh states in regards to context and because there is no overriding authority of technical language, I will often write in reference to the “prevailing” way a term is used. He also make a good point regarding “passive” steering in which the foot is simply rotating “with” the turning ski. ("active" vs "passive" is one of many examples of subtly shifting context for which many will fail to consider) So, to me, there is the “race” brushed carve and the “recreational” brushed carve. Because almost all non racers could never perform the “race brushed carve” definition that I use above, the one that Benjamin Raich was known for performing/perfecting early on, I find that many skiers and instructors like to use the brushed carve definition of the maneuver that is available to recreational experts which is skidding a bent ski but slightly away from the direction of travel which means that there is going to be some rotation of the foot in the process either because the shovel or tail becomes displaced from the arc that a bent ski wants to travel. I believe that this is the “recreational brushed carve” that PMTS promotes with its students where the race version is too difficult and unnecessary in free skiing. Below is HH’s brushed carve for which foot rotary is obviously present:

HH Brushed Carve:


Here, there are a number of examples for the race brushed carve that can only happen in such a powerful context:

Don't agree that he is using any rotation in this video

He's simply relaxing his outside foot, with less edge angle, so it skids a bit, and the skid of to the outside of the turn, equally at the tip and the tail off the ski.

 

[ToddW]

Below is HH’s brushed carve for which foot rotary is obviously present:

HH Brushed Carve:

Doby Man,

Look at that video again. Slow it down. The stand out characteristic of the skiing in that clip is the complete and total absence of the "foot rotary" which you called "obviously present."

You're projecting your own mental picture of skiing onto one of the world's best demo skiers whose technique and abilities are beyond your ability to correctly MA. Your brain is deluding you into seeing "foot rotary" much as it misleads you into seeing other bizarre things that simply are not when in the presence of a gifted magician.

 

[François Pugh]

Well his feet are rotating; they are attached firmly to the skis which are rotating (due to the carving forces being applied to the skis from the snow). If you cleanly carve (arc) a complete circle, you will have rotated your skis 360 degrees - without steering.

 

[skier]

Once the ski drifts like that, there's nothing keeping the tail or the tip from drifting at different rates based on pressure differences, ski shape, or surface variability. Some fantasize that fore/aft adjustments are enough to equalize, but that's too slow and cumbersome with various consequences. No my friends, torque is what keeps it all together, i.e. steering. The torque applied may not result in a rotating ski, so it could be passive steering, or stabilizing steering, but it's all the same muscular action as any other steering.

 

[François Pugh]

Things get even more interesting when you consider what happens when your skis are tipped. For illustrative purposes, consider a ski tipped. Fore or aft pressure when the ski is not tipped at all applies no direct torque. Fore or aft pressure on a ski tipped to 90 degrees 100 percent torque in the snow's plane. At tipping angles between 0 and 90 degrees, fore aft pressure provide torques between 0 and 100 percent. Not to mention the torques created by the snow on the ski tips and tails.

 

[JESinstr]

When it comes to skiing techniques (both racing and recreational) there a number of ways to "skin the cat" so to speak.
However if you approach it from a basic physics perspective, skiing is fundamentally binary. You are either going in a circle or a straight line. In racing, that choice can easily be the difference between winning and losing. Recreationally, it is often not a choice but a lack of circle development (carving) skills.

Of the two, circular travel has to be learned . It needs to be dynamically created, managed and maintained. This is the primary design point of the modern shaped ski. Straight line is the default created by the pull of gravity and the pitch of the slope.

Nowhere is it more important to develop circular travel skills than at the beginner level. The difference between what Doby Man calls "Recreational" brushing and the natural tendency to push the heel out and away is crucial. IMO many instructors fail to identify the difference between the two movement patterns which is highly problematic to advancement.

To the topic of this thread... Although I concur with many of the opinions voiced, I see the focus on the inside ski as a more advanced concept for those skiers that can "Walk and chew gum at the same time". If you tell a beginner traveling at low velocity to lead with the inside ski pinkie toe, or move the inside knee into the turn, you run the risk of their COM moving away from the outside ski which (again at low velocity) requires one's weight to bend the ski and begin the circular travel process.

 

[Mike King]

Doby Man,

Look at that video again. Slow it down. The stand out characteristic of the skiing in that clip is the complete and total absence of the "foot rotary" which you called "obviously present."

You're projecting your own mental picture of skiing onto one of the world's best demo skiers whose technique and abilities are beyond your ability to correctly MA. Your brain is deluding you into seeing "foot rotary" much as it misleads you into seeing other bizarre things that simply are not when in the presence of a gifted magician.

No need to get insulting, but I guess it might have been expected given that it does involve a video of HH. I'd also suggest that you look at the video again with particular attention to the path that the tip of the ski takes versus the path that the tail of the ski takes. The tail is taking a longer path than the tip. Is that because of foot rotation? Or is it because his center of mass in the shaping and finish phases of the turn is slightly ahead of the center of the ski?

In any case, the result of the tip turning in a shorter arc than the tail means that the foot must also rotate, whether it is active or passive.

 

[Doby Man]

@JESinstr, I like reading all your posts because they are so carvaholic. That said, it never escapes me that you are both literally and figuratively trapped in your own "circular" logic.

@Mike King, thanks, but I knew that bringing in HH, often a good developmental point of reference, will often spur either a worship syndrome or opposite response, both perspectives of which I try to avoid for myself. If a gifted magician is someone's idea of good skiing, I am forced to acquiesce from any further logic and just agree with the dude and maybe even buy him a magic set for next ski season. Hey, if you can pull a nice turn out of a hat, who cares how you got it?