Pinkie Leads the Way (learning to ski on shaped skis)

[markojp]

What my desired outcome is a deep high angle turn like that of JF or Jonathan Ballou. I find that skidded turns require less technical knowledge and input to create those outcomes.

While I very much enjoy what JF and JB do and think while they are very worthy of study and practice, we have to be careful when making blanket statements like your second sentence. Tactics and terrain (the latter is limited in the Midwest) often put into play brushed turns, carved, retraction, extension, etc... Sometimes even a stem entry into something narrow and gnarly is absolutely appropriate. I think we all need to be careful not to view what is less or more advanced in the window of our own experiences.

@Zentune, what'chyou think? (We finally got to ski together a couple Fridays ago! Much fun and variety was had. ... I also see we're on page 4 here.

 

[skier]

Actually I don't have as much weight on the inside as you think.

Somewhere you were talking about 30% weight on the inside ski. That's all I was referring to.

 

[Sandy Powell]

While I very much enjoy what JF and JB do and think while they are very worthy of study and practice, we have to be careful when making blanket statements like your second sentence. Tactics and terrain (the latter is limited in the Midwest) often put into play brushed turns, carved, retraction, extension, etc... Sometimes even a stem entry into something narrow and gnarly is absolutely appropriate. I think we all need to be careful not to view what is less or more advanced in the window of our own experiences.

@Zentune, what'chyou think? (We finally got to ski together a couple Fridays ago! Much fun and variety was had. ... I also see we're on page 4 here.

I tried to be politically correct and state that all turns are technical possible as deep carve. Reality hit today. I don't agree, Ted ligety and JF are on a whole different level. While some people think it should be noted as the same, it is not. I won't even bend to the idea that it's close to the same. I'm sorry it's not. Carving at one level is almost as if it has to be passed by DNA. I'm not even joking it's difficult to even get close to this level of technical skiing. Look today I taught some people that couldn't even stand on a ski. They where like a gummy worms. I couldn't even get them to wedge. Sorry to say but not all tactics and turns are created equal and that notion came crashing down on me like a ton of bricks today.

Skiing deep carve turns will never take the technical knowledge as skidded turns. Some will bend to the notion that it's the same but I won't. I can ski any other turn you want. I can't carve any turn you want at any point in time. It might be cuff assignment, but I just can't carve some turns. Again it's not that I don't see the necessity for some styles of turns or tactics. I don't and will not ever call them as equals. Some turns take a different set of skills that cannot be called equal. I agree though that some conditions take different skills. The irony is that most transitions are harder at slow speed. Either way I'm curious who you are since you stated we skied together...

 

[markojp]

I tried to be politically correct and state that all turns are technical possible as deep carve. Reality hit today. I don't agree, Ted ligety and JF are on a whole different level. While some people think it should be noted as the same, it is not. I won't even bend to the idea that it's close to the same. I'm sorry it's not. Carving at one level is almost as if it has to be passed by DNA. I'm not even joking it's difficult to even get close to this level of technical skiing. Look today I taught some people that couldn't even stand on a ski. They where like a gummy worms. I couldn't even get them to wedge. Sorry to say but not all tactics and turns are created equal and that notion came crashing down on me like a ton of bricks today.

Skiing deep carve turns will never take the technical knowledge as skidded turns. Some will bend to the notion that it's the same but I won't. I can ski any other turn you want. I can't carve any turn you want at any point in time. It might be cuff assignment, but I just can't carve some turns. Again it's not that I don't see the necessity for some styles of turns or tactics. I don't and will not ever call them as equals. Some turns take a different set of skills that cannot be called equal. I agree though that some conditions take different skills. The irony is that most transitions are harder at slow speed. Either way I'm curious who you are since you stated we skied together...

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying at all. No, I haven't skied with you. I skied with Zentune. He's an excellent skier. If you saw him making turns at your hill, you'd say, "I want to ski with that guy." Or in proper PNW'ese, "he's a good skier."

Let me show you a clip of the type of terrain and considerations I'm thinking about when I mention tactics. Yes, we teach, ski, and clinic in this stuff. I hope it illustrates where I'm coming from. Also understand that laying arcs on piste is absolutely something I love to do and are in mutual admiration with you for what JF, JB, SM, and the top tier of tech skiers and WC racers do. Giant Mikaela fan.... Huuuuge. Anyhow:



... and in more ideal, soft condtions:




... And for fun



... and the same skier arcing a la JF and JB:



And Josh Foster for the finale:



I sincerely hope this helps clarify, even if we're on page 4.

 

[skier]

I tried to be politically correct and state that all turns are technical possible as deep carve. Reality hit today. I don't agree, Ted ligety and JF are on a whole different level. While some people think it should be noted as the same, it is not. I won't even bend to the idea that it's close to the same. I'm sorry it's not. Carving at one level is almost as if it has to be passed by DNA. I'm not even joking it's difficult to even get close to this level of technical skiing. Look today I taught some people that couldn't even stand on a ski. They where like a gummy worms. I couldn't even get them to wedge. Sorry to say but not all tactics and turns are created equal and that notion came crashing down on me like a ton of bricks today.

Skiing deep carve turns will never take the technical knowledge as skidded turns. Some will bend to the notion that it's the same but I won't. I can ski any other turn you want. I can't carve any turn you want at any point in time. It might be cuff assignment, but I just can't carve some turns. Again it's not that I don't see the necessity for some styles of turns or tactics. I don't and will not ever call them as equals. Some turns take a different set of skills that cannot be called equal. I agree though that some conditions take different skills. The irony is that most transitions are harder at slow speed. Either way I'm curious who you are since you stated we skied together...

I think you mean a deep carve on a groomed run will always take more technical knowledge than an intermediate doing skidded turns on a groomed run. Because there are some exhibitions of skill with different turn types by advanced skiers that you could practice your entire life and never come close to doing. Some examples would be some of the stivots the racers do, or some extreme backcountry skiing, or mogul skiing. Some of those mogul skiers do skidded turns, but their skills are incredible.and only some of the top athletes in the world are capable of duplicating those turns at speed which is similar to how a deep carve duplicates a carve turn at speed. I think this could lead to an endless debate of which type of skiing takes more skill, but many different turn type have their use for advanced skiing with tremendous knowledge and skill. Even Ligety uses lots of different turn types in a single run besides just a deep carve, all of which you would have trouble duplicating.

 

[François Pugh]

@markojp , where be those steep trees in your second video?
(EDIT: I couldn't wait, and went to the google video. It's West Basin on Mt. Washington BC. I thought they looked familiar. A few decades ago they were one of my favorite places to ski, on SGs carrying a lot of speed from top of the world chutes. Funny thing is last year I was in same terrain with Volkl 100-Eights, not speeding, but making sweet turns at much lower speeds. I think maybe our equipment has an influence on what we enjoy doing most.)

@Sandy Powell , I think there may be definition differences in what a skill is, and we need a word for how well a skill is honed to a particular purpose. Balance, proprioception, accurate control of body parts are skills. Carving a turn using those skills could also be called a skill by some folk. Comparing Jean François to Ted, carving on groomers could be called a skill; carving on a race track would be the same skill, but it's easier to carve where you want to than to carve at maximum speed through ice and ruts where someone else decides where to turn. I think if Jean François had Ted's Skills he would have gone and gotten himself a FIS championship or two; he hasn't. It's a combination of genetics, practice and opportunity.

With regards to different types of turns/skiing. I enjoy carving clean turns at speed appropriate to the ski I am on (e.g. at higher speeds on SG skis than SL ski), I do it when ever I can. I also enjoy bump skiing. I typically employ a different type of turn for bumps, some people call it the short radius turn; it's not what I call carved. I can do both, but my skill in the not carved turn lags behind my skill in the carved turn, simply because I have much more practice at carved turns. When I decide I'm carving it's like I change into a different gear. When I'm skiing and switch on the fly, it's all about what's happening at the edge at the moment.

So you were just being polite when you said it was ok to use a stem turn? I feel bad now; you made me feel better about that stem turn 20 years ago that saved me from a snow fence while carving big bumps on my SGs. .

 

[Sandy Powell]

I think you mean a deep carve on a groomed run will always take more technical knowledge than an intermediate doing skidded turns on a groomed run.

Yes exactly and markjp sort of proved that point.

Let me show you a clip of the type of terrain and considerations I'm thinking about when I mention tactics.

Mark, this guy is awesome! Sort of a great example of what the original thread was about as well. Regardless of the tactics he is using his legs are almost always at the exact same angle. He has great separation of upper and lower body and can lead with the inside on pristine.

 

[dj61]

Sandy, just for my information, the woman in the picture above your name, is that you? If so, was that picture taken before or after your discovery of how to use the inside foot?

 

[Mike King]

@Sandy Powell, even the best technical skiers in the world have a lot to learn about skiing terrain. Case in point:

Yes, there are five fundamentals. Terrain and intent will require different blends. And while Aksel Svindal may rule the world cup and some elements of technical skiing, he is still learning the blend and tactics to ski big mountains. He can (and did) kick @Marcus Caston's ass in the downhill, but there's no way Svindal could keep up with Caston free skiing Snowbird. Or Chamonix.

Expert skiing is about versatility. That's what's so inspiring about watching someone like Svindal, or Rahlves, or Ligety demonstrate their learning in other genre's of skiing. It's no wonder that many of the freeride champs have a strong technical foundation that came from racing.

Mike

 

[Sandy Powell]

Sandy, just for my information, the woman in the picture above your name, is that you? If so, was that picture taken before or after your discovery of how to use the inside foot?

I am not sure if the picture was from last year or the year before. Yes it is me and I have only started to focus on the inside foot more. So even photos or videos now would have issues. It's going to take me a while to break the habit of A framing.

 

[JESinstr]

WOW. Lots of interesting opinions in this one!

Here's a couple more...

"Edging happens as a RESULT of the inside leg getting shorter" JF Beaulieu

Like flying a plane, Skiing is 3 dimensional . Your inside ski should function as an aileron, not a rudder.

 

[dj61]

I am not sure if the picture was from last year or the year before. Yes it is me and I have only started to focus on the inside foot more. So even photos or videos now would have issues. It's going to take me a while to break the habit of A framing.

Have you considered your boot setup as a part of your problems?

 

[Mike King]

@Sandy Powell, if A-framing is the issue, you might benefit from focusing a bit more further up the kinetic chain. I understand all the focus on the movements starting from the feet up, but for me, I don't have a lot of proprioception in my feet. My coach had me really work on learning a "pull" turn -- a turn that is driven by the inside leg. The idea is that you use the rotary in the inside leg to pull the skis into and through the turn.

It's femur rotation we are looking for, so you've got to get the femur, not the lower leg, to pull the skis to the inside of the turn. The action is external rotation of the inside femur while shortening the leg -- these two actions build edge and "steer" the skis through the turn.

It's a very powerful move and it results in matching of the lower leg angles. And when you pair it with the roll of the outside lower leg, it can result in deep carved turns.

Mike

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Another way to look at what Mike's describing, I believe, is

 

[Philpug]

I am still not sure why we needed to even say "shaped skis" in the title..

 

[Kneale Brownson]

First line in the OP's first post: "I thought I would start a thread on shaped skiing."

 

[skier]

@Sandy Powell, if A-framing is the issue, you might benefit from focusing a bit more further up the kinetic chain. I understand all the focus on the movements starting from the feet up, but for me, I don't have a lot of proprioception in my feet. My coach had me really work on learning a "pull" turn -- a turn that is driven by the inside leg. The idea is that you use the rotary in the inside leg to pull the skis into and through the turn.

It's femur rotation we are looking for, so you've got to get the femur, not the lower leg, to pull the skis to the inside of the turn. The action is external rotation of the inside femur while shortening the leg -- these two actions build edge and "steer" the skis through the turn.

It's a very powerful move and it results in matching of the lower leg angles. And when you pair it with the roll of the outside lower leg, it can result in deep carved turns.

Mike

That makes allot of sense. I mentioned before how two skis ride a different arc, and the inside ski needs to turn sharper. Some people want to carve with weight on both skis, parallel shins, without any skidding or rotary to achieve the "perfect carve". But, something else has to be done to make the inside ski turn faster. Tipping the inside more would look funny with bow legged skiing. Adding in some rotary works, and is probably what many people do whether they realize it or not. The video Kneale put up looks to be different where you put more forward pressure on the inside ski to engage the shovel which brings the ski around faster.

 

[Fishbowl]

“Actually I don't have as much weight on the inside as you think.“

The difference over weighting the inside ski, and “lighten and tip” techniques, is that you are engaging that inside ski on the snow, causing it to bend and physically lead the turn. That is a very different concept than tipping the inside ski to cause a resultant tipping in the outside ski. In both cases the inside ski is leading the turn, but in very different ways. I’m not judging it as right or wrong, just noting the difference.

 

[JESinstr]

“Actually I don't have as much weight on the inside as you think.“

The difference over weighting the inside ski, and “lighten and tip” techniques, is that you are engaging that inside ski on the snow, causing it to bend and physically lead the turn. That is a very different concept than tipping the inside ski to cause a resultant tipping in the outside ski. In both cases the inside ski is leading the turn, but in very different ways. I’m not judging it as right or wrong, just noting the difference.

However, I would advocate phrasing it another way. The weighting approach leads the turn and the lighten and tip approach enables the turn.

 

[Rod9301]

Not at all. The inside ski should have around 30% of the pressure. Here is how I see the order: Shift your hips over the new outside ski, start shortening the inside leg and actively tip it at the same time. Push that inside leg toward the hill as far as you want to generate larger angles. Aft and forward pressure are managed based on snow conditions and not a rule of always be forward. When going through powder, slush less than desirable conditions you have a more central body position.






Also for the record I understand that we are all taught somewhat basic steps on tipping the inside ski. I am not talking about getting out of a wedge. Everything that I have heard has always talked rolling the inside foot out to get out of a wedge. Then it's not really mentioned at a high level again as most people focus on forward pressure and the downhill ski. It's almost as if the inside foot becomes an after thought and what I am saying is that it's key. In order to shorten that leg you have to transfer weight. You need to have proper hip alignment to tip that inside ski and shorten it. Everything in that focus is not outside ski, but how to shorten and tip the inside. If you are trying tip any other way your body ends up leaning. If your focus is not tipping the inside you end up with an A frame. It might not be revolutionary to new skiers since they are taught to roll to get out of a wedge, but it is to me.

I watched Lito Tejada-Flores and couldn't even get past 10 min. His skiing is the exact opposite of what I am trying to achieve. He might say some of the right things, but what I saw in his skiing was wrong. He is rolling the inside foot only because his skis are two inches apart and he is leaning with his body. He has no separation of his upper body and what makes it worse with too much rotary motion. That is not at all what I am looking to emulate. Look up JF Beaulieu or Jonathan Ballou, but they still don't mention the inside ski.


When I am talking about rolling the inside leg I am talking about generating large angles like this:

Well, the racer looks like his skis are about 2 inches apart.
Don't fall in the feet apart trap.