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Pinkie Leads the Way (learning to ski on shaped skis)
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It takes about 1 second for a world cup racer to travel the distance between gates, so a screenshot is literally 1/1000 of a second of time, a mere slice. I wouldn't read too much into it - other than it's a unique shot.
To address your points, though:
- I don't think an inside ski needs to be bent into a carve to arc tighter than the outside ski. The geometry of a radius would show that, if the inside boot had no ski attached, that the inside boot would track a shorter radius than the outside boot, regardless of snow contact.
- Mark's purpose for the excessive tipping of the inside ski is unknown to us, especially Mark (who probably can't remember this turn
but I'd venture that it had a lot do do with clearing the gate. Much of a racers moves in a SL course are survival!That said, I think it is revealing that, in a tight spot, his movement instinct is to roll his LTE over hard.
- Mark's purpose for the excessive tipping of the inside ski is unknown to us, especially Mark (who probably can't remember this turn
I'm sort'a putt'in my $$$ on this horse.
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I think the big picture takeaway is:I'm sort'a putt'in my $$$ on this horse.
- the balance (counter required) over the downhill ski
- the apparent ease of tipping the LTE to facilitate (in any order ) gate clearing, edge angle/turn radius, counterbalancing.....and so on.
Inside ski “management” is the poor second cousin to downhill ski “pressure” in this sport. Those who work to master inside ski tipping will improve their downhill ski “pressure” significantly.
If you changed downhill to outside in the comments above, I’d agree with you. Downhill, however, is too late.
Mike
Yes, a racer isn't going to get very far if they can't tip the inside ski. Still though you can find lots of other pictures where top level racers aren't tipping the inside ski more than the outside ski, and many where it's less. I think the take away is that racers tip the inside ski when they need to.
I wrote down some thoughts which I hadn't decided to post. I decided not to post, and deleted it, but this website resurrected it and stuck it in the front of my next post. So if any one received it by email just ignore it.
Nerd warning (you've been warned!):
I’m sure he meant may have outside (“downhill is an old habit for many) but even “outside” isn’t specific enough because “outside” covers all three phases of the turn. If the outside ski is also the downhill ski in turn phase 3 (too late to pressure), then the fall line or apex, turn phase two, is also too late to pressure the new ski. Phase one or, turn initiation or the “uphill” and “old inside to new outside” ski (even before transition ends) is where we want to start applying pressure to the turn if we are groomer carving/technical freeskiing. This works for progressive weight shifting but no so much 100/0-0/100% where pressure typically does not start until phase two which is why hopping 100% weight shifting from foot to foot is slow and makes you late. I prefer using the three turn phases (and separate transition) for its universal applicability but here below is a two phase example that shows pressure beginning on the old inside ski. The “dual support phase” depicted below or, transition, with a weighted 50/50 weight/pressure distribution is only about a tenth of a second for this technique which, among other advantages, means that the turn has maximum carving forces applied to the turn.
Re: Use of the inside ski
Look at how many of Hirscher’s turns (below) are initiated and even completely ridden on the inside ski in both SL and GS. When you are this good, you don’t need to rely on the outside pressure fundamental as do us humans. He is a freaking cat. He can ski any portion of any turn with either his inside or outside ski on immediate demand as required by the fastest line. Consequently, having both skis constantly engaged, or as much as possible, allows for either ski to take over the “line” at any time as quick as possible. In other words, when we maintain a minimum of 10% of the turn’s engagement forces on the inside ski, then the inside ski is always there with the edge fully engaged to take over at any split second. Otherwise you have to first put it down and then engage it before you can reap any of its contribution. That is slow. There are many reasons why a racer’s inside ski will be “forced” or “bounced” off the ground due to the awkwardly chaotic demands of a race course, however, none of the disengagements are predicated with intent. Often, a GS racer is forced to bend the ski up to four times in one turn (multiple deflection) in an attempt to maintain a line/radius on bouncy, rutty terrain. The legs and feet of a racer are always reaching for the ground to exploit as much carving forces as possible between the inevitable disruptions of ski disengagement. Ski disengagement is always forced and is never a result of intent from the modern racer. Watch an elite racer carve turns outside the demands of a race course and you will see them tip and “bend” both skis with the same DIRT unless they get bounced. If a racer had the absorption capacity to keep both skis down and carving through the entire turn at all times, that is exactly what they would be doing, leaving parallel pencil-thin rail tracks that would only widen for vertical separation of the feet from high tipping.
Hirscher GS:
Hirscher SL:
Yup, the guy is a cat.
He is really strong too.
Great video.
He is really strong too.
Great video.
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Methinks if the inside ski is flatter than the outside ski the skiers stance stance will resemble an A frame.
Sure the photo of Engel with excess inside tipping is rare indeed- that’s what made it Iinteresting.
But all top the (modern) skiers that I use as models tip the inside ski equal to the downhill ski.
They may want to, but can't always do it, which is why it's hard to use one photograph to support a philosophy.
These are interesting reads on the topic.
http://youcanski.com/en/movement-of-the-inside-leg-or-matching-the-shins-for-effective-arcs
http://youcanski.com/en/use-of-the-inside-ski-in-modern-race-turns
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Hirscher (and Kristofferson, Shiffrin, and the other modern top skiers) don't need to maintain any weight on their "inside" ski, many SL
Phase I's start with, as we see in the videos, inside edge engagement. What is striking is the amount of inside pinkie toe tipping that these top athletes get early in their turns - and yes, when they need to lean on the "wrong" ski for tactical reasons, it's already at the same high edge angle as the outside ski. The transition is seamless- you really have to slo-mo the video to fully appreciate the movement.
Since the thread topic is regarding shaped skis, I think it is worth noting that there has been a noticible progression from the stance and movements from the early 1997-ish to mid 2000's,another marked wave of athletes in the late 2000's, and now onto (version 3.0?) the current Hirscher/Shiffrin era. This progression is worthy of another thread, but I believe this pinkie toe topic rises to the top of the discussion, as stance width and inside ski use has progressively evolved.
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Amazing how little distance a world class racer requires in transition.....
Pix is of an Austrian Mens WC racer's tracks, Nov. 2017. 30m GS skis.
Pinkie toe edge is active!
Pix is of an Austrian Mens WC racer's tracks, Nov. 2017. 30m GS skis.
Pinkie toe edge is active!
Joe, which is it? You can't have both. In ski racing, there is nothing "wrong" with a "need". Though you certainly make a lot of good points I agree with. I agree with you about the "seamlessness" of a good racing transition and your photo above is a great depiction of one.
I love discussing the transition and have a few of my own ideas about it. The reason that the transition in the above photo is so short and quick is due to the skier demonstrating a “constant” rate (speed) of tipping through transition which leads directly to a constant state of turning the ski which then leads to a constant state of flow. If the skis do not have flow, it doesn't matter how flowing the body may seem. As a matter of fact, I believe flow for the entire package comes from the ski and not the other way around as some experts will contest by the way they ski. Because the tipping or, the “rolling over” of the ski, is not slowed or delayed during transition, the tracks go directly from one set of edges directly to the next. Those tracks leave a space between edge sets shorter than the length of the ski itself. What this means is that the turn has much more carving forces at hand within the same amount of distance/turn length. This is exactly how these crazy WC GS racers are moving so fast while facilitating such a high degree of turn at the same time - more edge engagement. But … this is also exactly how an aging skier can maintain dynamic athletic expert skiing due to the higher level of efficiency that this technique offers. It gives the skier more power to distribute throughout more of the turn. It’s what aging experts need as much as world cup racers, if not more.
To me, the above described transition is a key “racing fundamental” that can and should be directly transferred into anyone’s technical freeskiing regimen. Out of the race course, it will look different as it will not need to occur along with volatile undulations, erratic disengagements, numerous ski deflections and the forced pivots that a race course demands. Often, one turn in a GS course can be comprised of up to 3 or 4 highly bent tight radius bent ski deflections that along with unbent periods between, cumulatively add up to one big radius for the entire turn. It might be the equivalent of doing 200 lb. squats in the back of a pickup truck moving 40 mph while weaving in 20 meter radius turns over a road bouncing up and down from an earthquake. But “we” only need to squat about 75 lbs. in the back of a pickup traveling at only 25 mph and without the earthquake (thank you very much). Also, in a race course, the inside ski is light and prone to frequently bouncing off the snow much more than the more heavily weighted/pressured outside ski which, in turn, means that the outside has all the absorption ability and focus. It seems that there are many observers out there that think the inside foot is coming off the ground with some kind of technical intent or purpose. I can assure that this is not the case as it was in 1982. When we transfer “modern” racing fundamentals to free skiing on the open slopes, this type of transition works much better and really shines without the turbulent chaos associated with the forced ratio of speed and radius required of racing. Ski racing not only requires brute force, it also requires “brute” technique which favors the core fundamentals such as outside ski pressure, shovel pressure at initiation, clean alignment, etc. than it does the more sophisticated complexities that we are much more free to use and take advantage of outside of the course. Also, while racers use much less vertical motion than they used to, they still need to keep some in reserve to be able to drop on the ski when they need more powerful engagement on an immediate basis. When we free ski using race technique, we no longer have the need to reserve and replenish almost any vertical motion at all. We are able to do “more” of what a racer would love to be able to facilitate in a race course. Not less.
Three subset fundamentals of the racing transition that is actually “enhanced” on the free slope: #1. Always keeping “both” skis down on the snow and engaged (bent) as much as possible (from 50/50 at transition to 90/10 in turn completion), including weighted transitions, and sucking terrain like a vacuum cleaner with flexion and retraction for constant absorption so that the edges are always able to be constantly engaged, changing the direction of our momentum and either immediately ready to take over at any time throughout the turn. #2. A progressive transfer of weight/ for left/right pressure distribution, is much better than being on only one foot at a time (100/0 - 0/100) which actually lengthens and slows the transition as well as relinquishes the aspect of constant control of momentum, a smooth transition of power from ski to ski and the equivalent of taking one or both hands off the steering wheel of a race car in the middle of a turn. … and, #3. As mentioned above, the constant rate of tipping through transition. Ideally we are adjusting the rate during the high tipping and shaping phases of the turn (2.5 through 3). Tipping should only slow to a stop when it must start tipping in the other direction (phase 3) which is conveniently also where turn shaping “finalizes” our direction of mass out of the turn. Formulate these three transition skills into a single package and we are really cooking the good sh*t.
Here are other views of the transition that I highly agree with even though they each include different sets of points from mine and each other:
Mountainsnowracing: The Transition
Ron Kipp: How to watch a ski race (transition)
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Ah yes, it's all in the transition....and that there are many inputs and variables, equipment, snow conditions, physical fitness.....
I'm agreement that the movements "come from" the skis, in the past 20 -25 years we've seen big changes, the old style top - down approach is largely gone in top recreational skiers, and all successful racers. However as much of what the skis can do is highly reliant on the upper body positioning and movements (or lack of) we still need to maintain focus.
I focus on racing as the technique is the most efficient - the pure carved turn is the Holy Grail of the successful racer. Plus, we have lots of video to look at....
My comment "Hirscher (and Kristofferson, Shiffrin, and the other modern top skiers) don't need to maintain any weight on their "inside" ski, many SL
Phase I's start with, as we see in the videos, inside edge engagement." relates to this move:
A good example of prioritizing inside ski tipping over rotary and edging. Hirscher has many, many moves in his quiver! During the same race at Kitz in 2016, archrival Hendrick won the day, with this recovery:
In both examples, their inside edges engage first from a no weight transition, and the transfer to the outside ski is so smooth it requires super slow mo to appreciate.
One of the biggest challenges for developing racers is developing high edge angles in both skis. Often, transitions are truncated with early edge sets, rotational movements, and lack of upper body separation (aka counterbalance). Building skills and confidence that allows the skier to comfortably roll both skis over should be a high priority.
Free skiing on groomed snow is a great place to practice and perfect these movements. Tops on the list, I think, is a relaxed transition (I prefer not to use "retraction" as that describes a more active movement).
I sometimes describe it as a a feeling akin to the moment when you relax to sit down on a comfy sofa or chair. It's very helpful to, as you describe, keep things close to the snow - "sucking terrain like a vacuum cleaner." A great training drill is to use a spine or wave track, or any handy rise or roller. I'll purposely time my turn so the transition is at the highest point of the rise, and practice minimizing pressure through relaxation as passing over the rise. It's a great drill and a lot of fun as well.
BTW, the racer on your picture has his boots about a couple of inches apart.Not at all. The inside ski should have around 30% of the pressure. Here is how I see the order: Shift your hips over the new outside ski, start shortening the inside leg and actively tip it at the same time. Push that inside leg toward the hill as far as you want to generate larger angles. Aft and forward pressure are managed based on snow conditions and not a rule of always be forward. When going through powder, slush less than desirable conditions you have a more central body position.
Also for the record I understand that we are all taught somewhat basic steps on tipping the inside ski. I am not talking about getting out of a wedge. Everything that I have heard has always talked rolling the inside foot out to get out of a wedge. Then it's not really mentioned at a high level again as most people focus on forward pressure and the downhill ski. It's almost as if the inside foot becomes an after thought and what I am saying is that it's key. In order to shorten that leg you have to transfer weight. You need to have proper hip alignment to tip that inside ski and shorten it. Everything in that focus is not outside ski, but how to shorten and tip the inside. If you are trying tip any other way your body ends up leaning. If your focus is not tipping the inside you end up with an A frame. It might not be revolutionary to new skiers since they are taught to roll to get out of a wedge, but it is to me.
I watched Lito Tejada-Flores and couldn't even get past 10 min. His skiing is the exact opposite of what I am trying to achieve. He might say some of the right things, but what I saw in his skiing was wrong. He is rolling the inside foot only because his skis are two inches apart and he is leaning with his body. He has no separation of his upper body and what makes it worse with too much rotary motion. That is not at all what I am looking to emulate. Look up JF Beaulieu or Jonathan Ballou, but they still don't mention the inside ski.
When I am talking about rolling the inside leg I am talking about generating large angles like this:
Or, you could direct the ski by pressuring the tip more or less, without steering it.
Or by tipping it more to turn sharper, or by tipping it less to turn less on hard snow...or by weighting it less during tansitions so you could weight it more in the belly of the turn in soft snow.. No need to confine oneself.
I meant you don't need to Steer
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