Pinkie Leads the Way (learning to ski on shaped skis)

[Rod9301]

I said turn, and I should have said "steer". If you just put the ski on edge, then all you're doing is riding the side cut. Steering will direct the ski in the direction you want to go.

Actually ️, you don't need to street to move in the direction you want.
You tighten the turn by pressuring the tip of the ski.

 

[Rod9301]

... And he wouldn't on modern gear

Look at Marcel skiing slalom. He lifts the inside ski, tip up.

 

[Average Joe]

It may be that while pulling the inside foot back at transition the strongest muscle engagement results in a slightly “tip up” stance.

 

[Sandy Powell]

I am still not sure why we needed to even say "shaped skis" in the title..

I started the thread and named it that because a lot of has changed from 20 years ago. I believe at least what happens in the transition and the initialization phase is different. It was my hope to talk about that piece of ski technique and not go off into styles and tangents. I agree some of the fundamentals are the same. What I have run into is a lot of people (older instructors) that still seem focused on the down hill ski and forward pressure instead of what happens from the inside.

What changed imo is vertical body motion, and how much you can roll a ski to create an arc. This coming from the inside and not the outside ski. That was why it was in the title. You are correct though the shaped skis doesn't need to be in the title but it was my hope to help someone that might be struggling with the change.

Have you considered your boot setup as a part of your problems?

Yes I have especially because I seem to struggle more with left hand turns.

 

[Mike King]

Not quite, @Kneale Brownson -- Josh is engaging the inside ski through pressure. A pull turn, in contrast, engages the inside ski through rotary and edging. There's no doubt that pressure can also be an important portion of the mix, but I tend to think of the Josh element as more alignment oriented -- that is, aligning the base of support to the center of mass. Pulling the inside foot back is one way to engage the tip of the inside ski with the result that I believe Josh is describing in the video.

But what my coach (Jim Schanzenbaker) is looking for is something different. It is the act of driving that inside edge into the snow by rotating the femur externally and pulling the leg towards the body to increase the edge. The pull comes from that active abduction and external rotation of that inside femur. Since this is a closed chain movement (the inside foot is still on the snow) and because of the combination of abduction and external rotation, the result is to tip the lower leg rather than to rotate the foot. Without the abduction, the result would be to rotate the foot rather than move the knee into the turn and pull the inside ski into the turn.

It's not an easy maneuver to describe, but easier to demonstrate. I've tried to be more precise in the biomechanics involved; hopefully, it is a bit clearer.

Mike

 

[Mike King]

What changed imo is vertical body motion, and how much you can roll a ski to create an arc. This coming from the inside and not the outside ski. That was why it was in the title. You are correct though the shaped skis doesn't need to be in the title but it was my hope to help someone that might be struggling with the change.

I think what has changed recently is the focus on creating edge by tipping the lower leg rather than by inclining the body. That's not to say that inclination is not used or needed to establish high edge angles, but rather when. In current skiing, we want to change and establish edge by tipping the ankles and lower leg rather than by diving the upper body across the skis. Changing/establishing edge by lower leg tipping allows the outside ski to maintain pressure early in the turn, allowing bend to be established in the outside ski, and allowing the point of maximum pressure in the turn to be shortly after the apex of the turn.

Changing/establishing edge through inclination leads to pressuring the inside ski early in the turn, failing to pressure the outside ski in initiation, failing to establish bend in the outside ski, and moves maximum pressure late in the turn -- the so called double bump in pressure.

And while the inside leg is really important, rolling the outside leg is really important as well. In fact, I think the real "roll and go" comes from rolling the outside leg. You have to establish the platform on the outside ski that will accept the pressure in the turn. It's the outside ski that is providing the turning moment in a carved turn, but the inside leg is determining it's path.

Mike

 

[Sandy Powell]

Not quite, @Kneale Brownson -- Josh is engaging the inside ski through pressure. A pull turn, in contrast, engages the inside ski through rotary and edging. There's no doubt that pressure can also be an important portion of the mix, but I tend to think of the Josh element as more alignment oriented -- that is, aligning the base of support to the center of mass. Pulling the inside foot back is one way to engage the tip of the inside ski with the result that I believe Josh is describing in the video.

But what my coach (Jim Schanzenbaker) is looking for is something different. It is the act of driving that inside edge into the snow by rotating the femur externally and pulling the leg towards the body to increase the edge. The pull comes from that active abduction and external rotation of that inside femur. Since this is a closed chain movement (the inside foot is still on the snow) and because of the combination of abduction and external rotation, the result is to tip the lower leg rather than to rotate the foot. Without the abduction, the result would be to rotate the foot rather than move the knee into the turn and pull the inside ski into the turn.

It's not an easy maneuver to describe, but easier to demonstrate. I've tried to be more precise in the biomechanics involved; hopefully, it is a bit clearer.

Mike

For me the idea of tipping the inside foot is causing me to put my hips in the correct place. I believe I am getting to the same spot by thinking of what the knee has to do first not the other way around. I am thinking tip from the inside, not rotate so maybe I've used some of the wording that led you to believe otherwise. In order to tip the inside foot you have to first balance over the outside. Then you have to have the right alignment which allows you to tip the inside.

Here is a picture from the other day of skiing where you can I am not A framing quite as much at all. The tracks look good too for the most part but I still deal with issues on left hand turns.

 

[markojp]

Look at Marcel skiing slalom. He lifts the inside ski, tip up.

Different cause, different effect.

 

[dj61]

For me the idea of tipping the inside foot is causing me to put my hips in the correct place. I believe I am getting to the same spot by thinking of what the knee has to do first not the other way around. I am thinking tip from the inside, not rotate so maybe I've used some of the wording that led you to believe otherwise. In order to tip the inside foot you have to first balance over the outside. Then you have to have the right alignment which allows you to tip the inside.

Here is a picture from the other day of skiing where you can I am not A framing quite as much at all. The tracks look good too for the most part but I still deal with issues on left hand turns.

Look at the angles of your skis. Very different. Also you appear not to be balanced against your outside ski. No counter rotation.

 

[markojp]

Look at the angles of your skis. Very different. Also you appear not to be balanced against your outside ski. No counter rotation.

I'd be very hesitant to give unsolicited epic'esque advice based on one photo. Rule one: no critique asked for, none given.

 

[Jamt]

For me the idea of tipping the inside foot is causing me to put my hips in the correct place. I believe I am getting to the same spot by thinking of what the knee has to do first not the other way around. I am thinking tip from the inside, not rotate so maybe I've used some of the wording that led you to believe otherwise. In order to tip the inside foot you have to first balance over the outside. Then you have to have the right alignment which allows you to tip the inside.

Here is a picture from the other day of skiing where you can I am not A framing quite as much at all. The tracks look good too for the most part but I still deal with issues on left hand turns.

A lot of women have a significant Q angle, which makes them look A-framed. That may be the case for you. You are in good company, e.g. Lindsey vonn looks A-framed too.
If your boots are aligned and the A-frame look concerns you, you are on the right track, in particular the inside foot focus.
One thing that makes you look less A-framed is skiing with a narrower stance. In addition to tipping the inside foot and lightening it, you can experiment with flexing the inside leg while letting the inside boot follow close to the outside leg. A lot of people get a too wide stance when the angles increase. I'm talking about the distance between the inside boot and the outside leg, not the distance between the skis.

 

[HeluvaSkier]

I stand to be corrected, but if I'm not mistaken PMTS played a part in the development of this skier https://www.pugski.com/threads/new-technical-skiing-video.9630/
@HeluvaSkier , correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct.

@Sandy Powell, You are right on that the inside foot is important in skiing. The importance is stressed by various instruction and coaching organizations around the world... to different degrees of course. For some it is the most important fundamental... For others it is an 'also mentioned'. As a skier who makes both high and low-end turns using similar movements I can assure you it is always a focus... perhaps even more-so at lower speeds when momentum is not your friend. Take the first two runs of the clip below (first 20 seconds)... both short turns on SL skis, but very challenging in their own way (for different reasons). The inside leg is absolutely critical in both sets of turns. On the other topic you brought up, FWIW, I consider myself to have a narrow stance, but can also put my hip on the snow at-will without hip dumping--so I would hesitate to throw out a demonstrator's skiing because of a narrow stance.

 

[Sandy Powell]

I just ran into this video today and thought I would share:

 

[CalG]

I really like the music!

 

[CalG]

You are correct.

@Sandy Powell, You are right on that the inside foot is important in skiing. The importance is stressed by various instruction and coaching organizations around the world... to different degrees of course. For some it is the most important fundamental... For others it is an 'also mentioned'. As a skier who makes both high and low-end turns using similar movements I can assure you it is always a focus... perhaps even more-so at lower speeds when momentum is not your friend. Take the first two runs of the clip below (first 20 seconds)... both short turns on SL skis, but very challenging in their own way (for different reasons). The inside leg is absolutely critical in both sets of turns. On the other topic you brought up, FWIW, I consider myself to have a narrow stance, but can also put my hip on the snow at-will without hip dumping--so I would hesitate to throw out a demonstrator's skiing because of a narrow stance.

Don't you get a bit bored? Every turn just like the previous ?

 

[mdf]

I just ran into this video today and thought I would share:

I think this is our @TDK from back on Epicski. He doesn't post much here. I always liked his perspective.

 

[HeluvaSkier]

Don't you get a bit bored? Every turn just like the previous ?

• First, when demonstrating technique, the idea is to repeat the same movements so the person using it as a model sees and learns the right movements in the right order, over and over and over. Demonstrating that level of consistency over even the most consistent surfaces and terrain, is actually not as easy as the average gaper might assume.
• Second, that entire video is short turns... with the idea being... get this: it is a compilation of... want to guess? ...Short turns! Weird. I know, right?
• Third, that clip shows a very wide range of short turns (speed, radius, carved, not carved, different skis, etc.), including some made on 185cm GS skis. Now, I shouldn't have to apologize for your MA ability, as it has clearly been found wanting, but if you can't tell the difference, I'd wager I've demonstrated exactly what I set out to.
• Fourth, to answer your question, no I do not get bored... That's sort-of like asking a basketball player if he gets tired of effortlessly hitting half-court floater shots over and over...
• Fifth, please feel free to post video of your skiing next... I'd love the education opportunity.

 

[markojp]

... page 5'itis... Maybe time to shut this one down and move on?

 

[Doby Man]

I just ran into this video today and thought I would share:

I enjoy TDK’s videos in general and appreciate both the technical enthusiasm and all the work that goes into making these types of videos offered free to the public. Kudos to him. I like this video in terms of using positive reinforcement rather than negative reinforcement in order to make changes to movement patterns as a general rule/benefit to a more effective development process. That said, however, I believe both “knee control” solutions are weak in that they do not address the foundation of the affected architecture. You can’t fix the Leaning Tower of Pisa by redirecting the 5th through 10th floors and expect it to remain well stacked in a sustainable way. Good stacking starts from the base of the ski (the foundation) and up. Equal tipping is what will rid a skier of A framing in a manner that will become much more sustainable. Equal tipping is achieved and sustained through proprioceptive abilities at the feet and ankles, something rarely developed with traditionally conventional instruction that places the emphasis of focus and kinetic priority at the legs and body. What do I mean by proprioceptive ability at the feet and ankles one may ask? Close your eyes and hold your hands out in front of you flat as if they are a pair of skis. Carve your hands side to side like a pair of skis and attempt equal tipping both high and low angles. Video yourself with your phone (while blindfolded/eyes shut) to see if your wrists and hands can sense their correct movement and equal tipping. This is proprioception. Now, are you controlling your attempts by feeling what your hands and wrists are doing or instead by feeling the location of where your elbows are? One works and the other doesn’t. You decide for yourself. A good skier has the same proprioceptive sensitivity in their feet/ankles that many of us have in our hands/wrists because it has been trained in. While knee spread can be a helpful external visual indicator for a coach and somewhat of an internal proprioceptive indicator of achievement or its lack thereof, it may not be considered itself as a sustainable solution based on the fundamental principles of basic architecture inherent in the “stacking” typically discussed in alpine technique. This is why the pinky leads the way and not the knee.

 

[Zentune]

That’s a great post Doby, and I just wanted to maybe add a thought or two. One reason, imo, that people have issues with foot/ankle proprioception is simply one of strength and mobility. By that I mean for the overwhelming majority of people, foot and ankle (and glute!) strength and control is often fairly limited. Flat, turned out feet are the norm...this means many are going to have trouble forming an arch for instance, especially if your arches have been propped up with shoes and inserts your whole life (such is often indicitave of poor glute activation as well).

Any way, this can lead to a higher-up-the-chain effort such as rolling the knees into and out of the turn. Could be addressed with well made foot beds, but the underlying issue of weak feet still remains.

So while many of us ‘preach’ feet-first’ (and we should imo), we may be asking our students and ourselves to do something we may not be able to fully access. Yet. Just some thoughts....

zenny