Of pizzas and french fries

[Monique]

"I'd been down it already and the bumps were taller than my waist in places."

Hah.

Okay, the reason I ask is that many men, including my husband, have plenty of confidence in things they don't actually know. Like "you can do this" or "it's smooth sailing after this lip." My husband also hates that an instructor can say the same thing he does, and I listen to the instructor. Missing the point that the instructor actually is an expert in the field (not all instructors, but the ones we ski with are).

 

[skibob]

Hah.

Okay, the reason I ask is that many men, including my husband, have plenty of confidence in things they don't actually know. Like "you can do this" or "it's smooth sailing after this lip." My husband also hates that an instructor can say the same thing he does, and I listen to the instructor. Missing the point that the instructor actually is an expert in the field (not all instructors, but the ones we ski with are).

Well, I think there are many reasons husbands and wives don't listen to each other sometimes and this^ is certainly one. The particular instance I told, we both retell and laugh about now. We know we sometimes don't listen to each other when we should. Her more than me, obviously.

 

[Monique]

Well, I think there are many reasons husbands and wives don't listen to each other sometimes and this^ is certainly one. The particular instance I told, we both retell and laugh about now. We know we sometimes don't listen to each other when we should. Her more than me, obviously.

Obviously!

 

[Mendieta]

Learned to ski using the ever popular method of following a friend. Going to the top and heading down the steepest trails I quickly learned how to sideslip rather then wedge to survive. Pretty much still doing the same thing 40 years later.

Well, it seems to me that your profile pic shows a "little" more advanced skills than side-slipping

 

[McEl]

Of Pizza and French Fries.

First, I must say that your enthusiasm and interest are evident. That is why I am taking the time to comment about the process of moving a beginner along the path of improvement using the wedge. For your next reading in this regard, I suggest reviewing the posts of Mark, Jill and Kneale in the other thread entitled Train the Trainer.

The wedge-to-parallel question you ask is indeed an ‘honest question’, one with which instructors and coaches struggle daily in their decisions to use or not use a particular movement pattern for a particular student. If the teacher is struggling, think of how the poor beginner/intermediate is struggling.

Mark’s post # 2 describes the major steps, the “stepping stones”, if you will indulge in that metaphor, along the path:

1. Flatten the ski to release the edge to start the turn;

2. Twist (steer) the feet in the direction the skier wants to go.

3. Flex and extend the ankles and knees to replace the rigidity because the skier needs to be using all the leg joints as she moves through a turn.

4. Increase separation of upper and lower body so as to decrease the use of upper body rotation to initiate turns. Separation is part of introducing the beginner to the technique of starting the turn with the feet instead of the shoulders.

Kneale’s post # 7 , last sentence, highlights the critical movement of how one gets out of a wedge turn and into the beginnings of a well-initiated parallel turn: ‘releasing’ out of the old turn by flattening the ski to start the new turn.

Jill’s post # 9 on non-movement is based on the fact that skier is too stiff. There is no “up and down”, which if done only slightly and done somewhat diagonally, is a good way to cause the ski to “flatten” enough to start sliding into the new turn. Called “extending into the turn”, this is a good habit, and it is learned in the comfort and security of the wedge.

For a frightened, nervous beginner, this movement is done in the security of the wedge and within the comfortable boundaries of the wedged skis without the scary crossover. That good habit will continue to be used as increasing confidence and speed cause the wedge to gradually disappear, replaced by a more parallel orientation of the skis, and will cause rudimentary crossover to develop.

This wedge-to-parallel progression works for fearful new skiers, and, because it works is why it is so universal. Done by a teacher who understands, that progression need not teach bad habits that must be unlearned later.

While it (wedge-to-parallel) works well to get the tentative new skier to a rudimentary level of basic parallel, progress is often halted by failure to keep at it long enough to outgrow the wedge, that is, to practice – to put in the mileage.

Progress is also halted by failure to embark, at this point, on rather intensive side-slipping drills and exercises in order to develop side-to-side balance and a good feel for the corresponding edges of parallel positions, as contrasted with the by-now-familiar feel of the opposing edges of a wedge.

These twin failures combine to create a significant learning plateau. A skier can stay with that comfortable, familiar technique forever if someone does not impose the discipline to “side-slip off” that plateau. So, the fault lies not with the ‘wedge’; it lies with the people responsible for leaving the comfort zone of the familiar and continuing on to the unfamiliar, but necessary, side-slipping-in-parallel positions that emphasize balancing on the outside ski. A wedge turner would do better if he knew better, but for the perennial wedge turner, no instructor has, to date, caused the skier to know better.

On the subject of stiffness in Jill’s post, stiffness can be reduced considerably by skating, and skating is often omitted from lessons given to new adult skiers who seem to know nothing about this alternative means of moving across snow.

After you have digested those posts in Train the trainer, I suggest wading through the posts on Epic Ski started February 28, 2015, in which some of the same posters found here at PUG conspired to create a treatise of sorts for beginners and intermediates who have stalled or who want to know more about the situation in which they find themselves. For one with an inquisitive nature and interest, as are indicated by your ‘honest question’, they are worth reading.

http://www.epicski.com/t/133203/pervasive-problems-of-recreational-skiers

http://www.epicski.com/t/133360/pervasive-problems-solutions

http://www.epicski.com/t/133672/joy...the-pervasive-problems-of-intermediate-skiing

Older thread: http://www.epicski.com/t/74403/most-common-skiing-problems-flaws/30 Posts 30 & 31


In conclusion, the wedge is not bad; the ill-informed emphasis on it during a beginner’s journey, is.

Regards, McEl

 

[Mendieta]

Thank you for a very comprehensive response, @McEl . Let me add a link to the "traiin the trainer" thread, for the interest of other readers in the future:

https://forum.pugski.com/threads/train-the-trainer.2602/

Incidentally, I really like the video series by the 'Ski School' (Elate Media) folks (see here). Something they emphasize, and I think it's a breakthrough for new skiers, is weight transfer. That's, I think, a major breakthrough at the very beginning, The video quoted in the original post in "train the train does", and I always loved the clutch-accelerator metaphor, in a video quoted further down. It was a breakthrough for me in my first season. Once you realize you can float the inside leg, you might as well make it edge with the same angle as the outside ski.

Anyways, good stuff, keep it coming I'll go through those epic posts as well, thanks a bunch for the links.

 

[Mendieta]

On the subject of stiffness in Jill’s post, stiffness can be reduced considerably by skating, and skating is often omitted from lessons given to new adult skiers who seem to know nothing about this alternative means of moving across snow.

On that particular item, do you think the thousand steps drill helps, as well? Thanks!

 

[Pete in Idaho]

What are we talking about ? The bumps on Gunbarrel at Heavenly or Al's run at Taos. And, great powder is not 2 inches deep. My ability is not past a perfect wedge turn but my pleasure quotient sure is !

 

[crgildart]

1,000 step drills were only used on more advanced skiers when/where I was teaching. It was actually something used to evaluate instructor candidates too.

 

[Jilly]

I don't know about 1000 steps to release the ankle. Just a small hop while turning should do it. People seems to hang around the front the boot (guilty) or sit back and use the back of the boot for support. Support should be stacked joints right through the arch of the foot. Too far forward puts pressure on the forefoot and the toes go to sleep. Too far back and the quads get it. Just hopping through the turn will release the ankle. Or if you're not confident about a 2" hop off the snow, then just move the feet back and forth under you.

 

[Mendieta]

I don't know about 1000 steps to release the ankle.

Oh, I was thinking just as a drill to reduce stiffness. But I get what @crgildart means, it's more advanced than the level we were discussing.

 

[skibob]

Or if you're not confident about a 2" hop off the snow, then just move the feet back and forth under you.

Does it really even take that much? I mean in "ordinary conditions". Say on piste, not terribly bumped up or cruddy. I can of course think of conditions where even 2" would not be nearly enough.

 

[skibob]

Of Pizza and French Fries.

First, I must say that your enthusiasm and interest are evident. That is why I am taking the time to comment about the process of moving a beginner along the path of improvement using the wedge. For your next reading in this regard, I suggest reviewing the posts of Mark, Jill and Kneale in the other thread entitled Train the Trainer.

The wedge-to-parallel question you ask is indeed an ‘honest question’, one with which instructors and coaches struggle daily in their decisions to use or not use a particular movement pattern for a particular student. If the teacher is struggling, think of how the poor beginner/intermediate is struggling.

Mark’s post # 2 describes the major steps, the “stepping stones”, if you will indulge in that metaphor, along the path:

1. Flatten the ski to release the edge to start the turn;

2. Twist (steer) the feet in the direction the skier wants to go.

3. Flex and extend the ankles and knees to replace the rigidity because the skier needs to be using all the leg joints as she moves through a turn.

4. Increase separation of upper and lower body so as to decrease the use of upper body rotation to initiate turns. Separation is part of introducing the beginner to the technique of starting the turn with the feet instead of the shoulders.

Kneale’s post # 7 , last sentence, highlights the critical movement of how one gets out of a wedge turn and into the beginnings of a well-initiated parallel turn: ‘releasing’ out of the old turn by flattening the ski to start the new turn.

Jill’s post # 9 on non-movement is based on the fact that skier is too stiff. There is no “up and down”, which if done only slightly and done somewhat diagonally, is a good way to cause the ski to “flatten” enough to start sliding into the new turn. Called “extending into the turn”, this is a good habit, and it is learned in the comfort and security of the wedge.

For a frightened, nervous beginner, this movement is done in the security of the wedge and within the comfortable boundaries of the wedged skis without the scary crossover. That good habit will continue to be used as increasing confidence and speed cause the wedge to gradually disappear, replaced by a more parallel orientation of the skis, and will cause rudimentary crossover to develop.

This wedge-to-parallel progression works for fearful new skiers, and, because it works is why it is so universal. Done by a teacher who understands, that progression need not teach bad habits that must be unlearned later.

While it (wedge-to-parallel) works well to get the tentative new skier to a rudimentary level of basic parallel, progress is often halted by failure to keep at it long enough to outgrow the wedge, that is, to practice – to put in the mileage.

Progress is also halted by failure to embark, at this point, on rather intensive side-slipping drills and exercises in order to develop side-to-side balance and a good feel for the corresponding edges of parallel positions, as contrasted with the by-now-familiar feel of the opposing edges of a wedge.

These twin failures combine to create a significant learning plateau. A skier can stay with that comfortable, familiar technique forever if someone does not impose the discipline to “side-slip off” that plateau. So, the fault lies not with the ‘wedge’; it lies with the people responsible for leaving the comfort zone of the familiar and continuing on to the unfamiliar, but necessary, side-slipping-in-parallel positions that emphasize balancing on the outside ski. A wedge turner would do better if he knew better, but for the perennial wedge turner, no instructor has, to date, caused the skier to know better.

On the subject of stiffness in Jill’s post, stiffness can be reduced considerably by skating, and skating is often omitted from lessons given to new adult skiers who seem to know nothing about this alternative means of moving across snow.

After you have digested those posts in Train the trainer, I suggest wading through the posts on Epic Ski started February 28, 2015, in which some of the same posters found here at PUG conspired to create a treatise of sorts for beginners and intermediates who have stalled or who want to know more about the situation in which they find themselves. For one with an inquisitive nature and interest, as are indicated by your ‘honest question’, they are worth reading.

http://www.epicski.com/t/133203/pervasive-problems-of-recreational-skiers

http://www.epicski.com/t/133360/pervasive-problems-solutions

http://www.epicski.com/t/133672/joy...the-pervasive-problems-of-intermediate-skiing

Older thread: http://www.epicski.com/t/74403/most-common-skiing-problems-flaws/30 Posts 30 & 31


In conclusion, the wedge is not bad; the ill-informed emphasis on it during a beginner’s journey, is.

Regards, McEl

As a former Professor, I always felt compelled to examine my own methods and assumptions when I started thinking that my students were failing due to lack of effort or ability. With all due respect, I see an adherence to orthodoxy in the establishment. If I am right, and this is a widespread matter, then the orthodoxy has already failed. A large swath of the public does not simply lack the perseverance or physical ability to learn to ski parallel and have fun. We need numbers for our sport to survive. And many people just simply don't get to the point where skiing is fun. And the transition from wedge to parallel is a major part of this.

By your logic, my son "fail[ed] to keep at it long enough to outgrow the wedge," But, for the life of me, I can't fathom why anybody would expect a child to suffer through it simply because they and most others did. It sounds like the same logic that drives hazing: it sucks, but I had to do it. You're a wuss if you don't. I intervened and taught my son very quickly to parallel and he instantly went from complaining as we dragged him around the mountain to loving skiing and dragging us everywhere. In two hours.

Yes, we could have spent much more than we already did (and we spent plenty on lessons for him) on lessons and, so long as we forced him, he would have sooner or later made the transition to skiing parallel. Hopefully, by then, all of the joy of skiing wouldn't have been driven out of it. Can anybody seriously compose an argument as to why we should have done this?

Just to be clear, he will continue to take lessons. As a parallel skier. Since teaching myself to parallel, I've taken many lessons. And I've NEVER felt like I wasted my time or money on them. I love taking lessons. I am not anti ski school. I also don't think I have some magical answer to a revolution in ski instruction. What I've cobbled together has worked for me and for my son. I don't have THE answer. But I do strongly feel that wedge to parallel is a bad approach that loses many, many potential skiers long before they ever make it to the fun stage. We need them to keep our mountains open. As much as we complain about crowded green and blue runouts, I dread empty ones much more. I can't afford to run the mountain purely for the pleasure of myself and a few close friends.

 

[Jilly]

Does it really even take that much? I mean in "ordinary conditions". Say on piste, not terribly bumped up or cruddy. I can of course think of conditions where even 2" would not be nearly enough.

It's an exercise, not a way to ski. Most students that would need this exercise are on groomers.

Another I just thought of: The instructor makes a line down a groomed slope with his/her poles. The students are asked to ski across it and not erase the line. Therefore they need to "jump" over it. 1" or 6" doesn't matter. The only way to not erase the line is to unlock the ankle and jump it. The line should be 4 turns long at medium radius.

 

[Monique]

Even on old straight skis - I was a very athletic teen when I first skied a bunny hill, and my boyfriend's family signed me up for an afternoon lesson, so I skied with them in the morning. According to my possibly incorrect bf's mom, I skipped wedging and went straight to what she called stem christies. Wedges seemed to be a lot of work (I'm sure they were of the braking variety), and I just couldn't make myself do it to get down the hill.

When I got to the class and refused to do wedges, my instructor didn't know what to do with me, because I wasn't following the program.

Now, in retrospect, I have no doubt I was being a snotty teen who was "too good" for a "snowplow." And I have a greater appreciation for wedging these days than I ever did back then. And my solution to not knowing how to slow down was to sit on my butt, which my bf told me would not always be such a great idea as I got into steeper terrain than the Ski Liberty bunny hill.

Anyway, all that being said, you don't have to start with a wedge.

 

[skibob]

It's an exercise, not a way to ski. Most students that would need this exercise are on groomers.

Another I just thought of: The instructor makes a line down a groomed slope with his/her poles. The students are asked to ski across it and not erase the line. Therefore they need to "jump" over it. 1" or 6" doesn't matter. The only way to not erase the line is to unlock the ankle and jump it. The line should be 4 turns long at medium radius.

Okay, I understand now!

 

[Don in Morrison]

A couple of my grown-up snowboarder kids wanted to try skiing. I tried teaching them a wedge to get started, but they weren't getting it very well. Then I told them just to pretend they are on roller blades, and off they went, like it was no big deal. I only had to help them out with balance and weight distribution issues after that. My 10 year old granddaughter didn't make much progress until we gave up on the wedge and started trying to point both skis where she wanted to go. She didn't have the roller blade experience to draw on, so it was somewhat more difficult to get her going.

I learned with the snowplow way back when. They sized me for 205s and then gave me 200s for the first day so it would be "easier" to turn the skis. It took me 5 or 6 ski days to transition to stem turns and another 5 or 6 to make it to mostly parallel.

 

[Mendieta]

A couple of my grown-up snowboarder kids wanted to try skiing. I tried teaching them a wedge to get started, but they weren't getting it very well. Then I told them just to pretend they are on roller blades, and off they went, like it was no big deal. I only had to help them out with balance and weight distribution issues after that.

Interesting, you mean edging on corresponding edges (parallel)? Or did they start ski skating?

 

[Don in Morrison]

Interesting, you mean edging on corresponding edges (parallel)? Or did they start ski skating?

It was parallel, as though they were coasting down a gentle hill.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

As a former Professor, I always felt compelled to examine my own methods and assumptions when I started thinking that my students were failing due to lack of effort or ability. With all due respect, I see an adherence to orthodoxy in the establishment. If I am right, and this is a widespread matter, then the orthodoxy has already failed. A large swath of the public does not simply lack the perseverance or physical ability to learn to ski parallel and have fun. We need numbers for our sport to survive. And many people just simply don't get to the point where skiing is fun. And the transition from wedge to parallel is a major part of this.

By your logic, my son "fail[ed] to keep at it long enough to outgrow the wedge," But, for the life of me, I can't fathom why anybody would expect a child to suffer through it simply because they and most others did. It sounds like the same logic that drives hazing: it sucks, but I had to do it. You're a wuss if you don't. I intervened and taught my son very quickly to parallel and he instantly went from complaining as we dragged him around the mountain to loving skiing and dragging us everywhere. In two hours.

Yes, we could have spent much more than we already did (and we spent plenty on lessons for him) on lessons and, so long as we forced him, he would have sooner or later made the transition to skiing parallel. Hopefully, by then, all of the joy of skiing wouldn't have been driven out of it. Can anybody seriously compose an argument as to why we should have done this?

Just to be clear, he will continue to take lessons. As a parallel skier. Since teaching myself to parallel, I've taken many lessons. And I've NEVER felt like I wasted my time or money on them. I love taking lessons. I am not anti ski school. I also don't think I have some magical answer to a revolution in ski instruction. What I've cobbled together has worked for me and for my son. I don't have THE answer. But I do strongly feel that wedge to parallel is a bad approach that loses many, many potential skiers long before they ever make it to the fun stage. We need them to keep our mountains open. As much as we complain about crowded green and blue runouts, I dread empty ones much more. I can't afford to run the mountain purely for the pleasure of myself and a few close friends.

I think the key is teaching movements not teaching "the wedge" or "parallel". If you teach never ever skiers the right movements, they can be off to the races in very little time. If they are taught and use the correct movements, they can have fun from day 1. My coach is a great skier and a great teacher. I have shadowed many of his Level 1 classes and it is amazing what people can do in one day. I have taught many people who are frightened to the point where they won't move and by the end of the day, they are making wedge Christy turns at the pace they want to go with no problem.