Of pizzas and french fries

[Monique]

Odds are, those of us who took a lesson the first day didn't get stellar instruction, and we did mostly turn out fine. I can only barely remember my first ski lesson, and all I remember is that I was annoyed at the instructor, and that there were 80 people in the group (rough estimate). I can only imagine what it would have been like to set out on my ski journey with an experienced, highly certified instructor and a reasonable group size. I doubt it could have made me more passionate about skiing, although surely there must have been people who take one of those classes and just aren't wowed. Would it have made a difference to my eagerness to take lessons (which I mostly resisted for years)? Would I have made faster progress?

 

[LiquidFeet]

Industry numbers that get discussed often:
15% of beginner never-evers return. That means 85% don't.
I have no idea how these numbers are produced, but I hear this often enough that I figure someone up high believes they are accurate.

 

[markojp]

And ... it's no surprise, since many instructors give an unambiguous command to stay forward in the boot come hell or high water, crush the grape, crush the quarter, etc.

Riding the front of the boot is a problem at higher levels of skiing. Helping a beginner understand that 'being forward' a la.maintaining cuff contact and experienc ing commensurate gains in control is counter intuitive for the large majority of level 0-4 skiers.

 

[Jilly]

And ... it's no surprise, since many instructors give an unambiguous command to stay forward in the boot come hell or high water, crush the grape, crush the quarter, etc.

Riding the front of the boot is a problem at higher levels of skiing. Helping a beginner understand that 'being forward' a la.maintaining cuff contact and experienc ing commensurate gains in control is counter intuitive for the large majority of level 0-4 skiers.

Exactly. A lot of the people that ride the front of the boot were told by instructors to get forward. Because they were in the back seat!!

 

[Mendieta]

Industry numbers that get discussed often:
15% of beginner never-evers return. That means 85% don't.
I have no idea how these numbers are produced, but I hear this often enough that I figure someone up high believes they are accurate.

(emphasis mine). Funny, but I've been discussing offline, both with @Tricia and @Philpug , about this topic (without having that actual figure!). Two years ago I was a never ever, so it's all fresh in my mind. I feel like people, a lot of the time, go in without enough info, and make silly rookie mistakes that kill their experience and turn them away from skiing. Heck, I've seen it happen first hand.

Those of us with an inclination for sports are more likely to survive a bad first day ever. I don't think instructors are the culprit, for that matter, neither is the progression from the snow plow, the subject of this thread. I think it has to do, more, with hitting the slopes for just one day on President's day. Everybody is crazy, you can't find a spot for lunch, you dont understand why those boots annoy you, etc.

 

[Tricia]

(emphasis mine). Funny, but I've been discussing offline, both with @Tricia and @Philpug , about this topic (without having that actual figure!). Two years ago I was a never ever, so it's all fresh in my mind. I feel like people, a lot of the time, go in without enough info, and make silly rookie mistakes that kill their experience and turn them away from skiing. Heck, I've seen it happen first hand.

Those of us with an inclination for sports are more likely to survive a bad first day ever. I don't think instructors are the culprit, for that matter, neither is the progression from the snow plow, the subject of this thread. I think it has to do, more, with hitting the slopes for just one day on President's day. Everybody is crazy, you can't find a spot for lunch, you dont understand why those boots annoy you, etc.

We see this every day with beginners who have a horrible experience in the rental shop, then get the most inexperienced instructor for a lesson IF they take a lesson, but most often a friend is going to teach them which is more likely to create a bad situation.
.....then they hobble into the ski shop asking me to fix a bad rental boot fit so they can figure out how to make it through the day.

 

[Monique]

Industry numbers that get discussed often:
15% of beginner never-evers return. That means 85% don't.
I have no idea how these numbers are produced, but I hear this often enough that I figure someone up high believes they are accurate.

Those numbers are only meaningful in comparison to other activities. How many people return to mountain biking, dirt biking, boating, or horseback riding? Kids vs adults? I would assume passionate parents are more likely to produce children who go on to be passionate about it, themselves.

In other words, it's unlikely that skiing will do much better than other comparably expensive and inconvenient sports. But I don't know what the comps are. I think all of those except the relatively recent mountain biking and dirt biking tend to be heavily influenced by whether your parents did it as part of their lifestyle.

Riding the front of the boot is a problem at higher levels of skiing. Helping a beginner understand that 'being forward' a la.maintaining cuff contact and experienc ing commensurate gains in control is counter intuitive for the large majority of level 0-4 skiers.

Exactly. A lot of the people that ride the front of the boot were told by instructors to get forward. Because they were in the back seat!!

I get this. And I get that the nuance might be lost on newer skiers, even if you tried to explain it. But given that most people only take lessons once in a blue moon, it's no surprise that this misinformation is locked into people's brains as the right way to ski, and of course shared with their friends.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Retention for snowboarders is no better, so I don't think we can blame the wedge (or the boots).

 

[markojp]

I get this. And I get that the nuance might be lost on newer skiers, even if you tried to explain it. But given that most people only take lessons once in a blue moon, it's no surprise that this misinformation is locked into people's brains as the right way to ski, and of course shared with their friends.

Honestly, crushing the front of the cuff just isnt a problem with 99% of level 0-5 skiers... They're more likely to fold at the waist to 'get forward'.. This is easy to nip in the bud.

 

[LiquidFeet]

My local garden club (I'm a gardener in the green season) had an interesting topic for its monthly meeting last month. The presenters were teachers of the "Alexander Technique," and their topic was how to save one's back when gardening, and how to use "stacking" to minimize excessive fatigue. When the people in my group were asked to reach down towards the ground, they bent at the waist. Our teacher showed us all how to bend equally from all the relevant lower body joints so as to reduce stress on the back, pointing out that there were three such joints, the ankle, the knee, and the hip. He made a big deal of showing us that the hip was located at the fold between the thigh and the upper body, not up at the belly button and belt line. He modeled bending as much as possible from the ankle first (feet up kinetic chain!). As a ski instructor, I'm very familiar with all of this.

Everyone tried it again, but guess what... they bent at the waist again. Their ankles did not change; no extra dorsiflexion, no, not any. I'm beginning to think this issue is omni-present, and that it isn't just brought on by the stiffness of the unfamiliar ski boots.

 

[Monique]

Honestly, crushing the front of the cuff just isnt a problem with 99% of level 0-5 skiers... They're more likely to fold at the waist to 'get forward'.. This is easy to nip in the bud.

No doubt. But then those level 5s advance to level 7s (or to black terrain and bumps, anyway) without ever being disabused of that notion.

Maybe it's a weird thing for me to harp on. You're right - way more skiers have issues getting into the backseat than have issues with staying forward all the time. But it has come up a lot in my lessons, and it takes a *lot* of effort to unlearn the belief - not just the habit - that your shins should be rammed forward at all times. Which can also throw your caboose into the back seat. I know that instructors had to tell it to me and the group many, many times before we got it through our thick skulls that they actually did mean it and were changing the rules. The rule we'd been taught is "glue your shin to the front of the boot." Then later we were being told, "Nope, just kidding, stop leaning on the dang boot!" along with unbuckled boot drills and such.

I suspect you're not likely to learn to ski without being told some things you need to unlearn later, but I think trying to minimize that is a good thing. Unless you figure most people aren't going to ever get to that level of skiing, anyway, and that's sad.

My local garden club (I'm a gardener in the green season) had an interesting topic for its monthly meeting last month. The presenters were teachers of the "Alexander Technique," and their topic was how to save one's back when gardening, and how to use "stacking" to minimize excessive fatigue. When the people in my group were asked to reach down towards the ground, they bent at the waist. Our teacher showed us all how to bend equally from all the relevant lower body joints so as to reduce stress on the back, pointing out that there were three such joints, the ankle, the knee, and the hip. He made a big deal of showing us that the hip was located at the fold between the thigh and the upper body, not up at the belly button and belt line. He modeled bending as much as possible from the ankle first (feet up kinetic chain!). As a ski instructor, I'm very familiar with all of this.

Everyone tried it again, but guess what... they bent at the waist again. Their ankles did not change; no extra dorsiflexion, no, not any. I'm beginning to think this issue is omni-present, and that it isn't just brought on by the stiffness of the unfamiliar ski boots.

This sounds like learning to deadlift instead of lifting with your back (although the photos I see of the Alexander Technique involve more forward bending at the waist). Doing deadlifts has a bad rep, which is funny to me, because as near as I can tell, it is just teaching you how to lift anything off the floor without hurting yourself. Doing deadlifts wrong will hurt you - so will picking up a box of books with your back. But for some reason, when you pick up a box of books and end up in bed for a week, people attribute it to age. When you do the same thing because you did your deadlift wrong, people blame that filthy filthy exercise.

Anyway, I agree - proper form matters everywhere, and we all learn lazy movement patterns that could ultimately hurt us. I'm going through this with my post-op PT. They're teaching me to use the posterior chain more. They tell me everyone is too quad dominant and needs to use their posterior chain (hamstrings and glutes) more. I wonder why we have to wait till we're injured to learn this. Then again .... would I have listened to someone telling me I need to relearn all my movements if it weren't part of rehab?

 

[Erik Timmerman]

The rule we'd been taught is "glue your shin to the front of the boot." Then later we were being told, "Nope, just kidding, stop leaning on the dang boot!" along with unbuckled boot drills and such.

Well, do glue your shin to the front of the boot. That's not the same as leaning on the dang boot. Anyway, you know I've never seen you ski at all, but if you really can't stop hanging on the tongue, maybe your sagittal plane alignment is off.

 

[Monique]

Well, do glue your shin to the front of the boot. That's not the same as leaning on the dang boot. Anyway, you know I've never seen you ski at all, but if you really can't stop hanging on the tongue, maybe your sagittal plane alignment is off.

No, that's not my personal issue right now. I am consolidating what I remember of feedback given to multiple people, including me, over the last few years. But skiing without boots buckled for a few runs can teach you (any you) a lot about how you typically pressure their boots, and whether or not that pressure is necessary or desirable.

 

[Mendieta]

But skiing without boots buckled for a few runs can teach you (any you) a lot about how you typically pressure their boots, and whether or not that pressure is necessary or desirable.

An expert skier at a ski shop mentioned exactly that to me, the other day. I was telling the story that once, in my first season skiing, I forgot to buckle a boot and I was out of whack without knowing why ... until I realized. He mentioned that ski racers ski unbuckled sometimes, as a drill. It made a lot of sense to me.

 

[McEl]

In post # 74 you asked,
"In a sense, is it fair to say that Javelin turns train you for the usual (outside ski), white pass for the unusual (inside ski), and thousand step are a dynamic, continuous transition between the two?"

Partial answers to these questions can be observed here:


At this point the skier is well past "Pizza" !
McEl

 

[markojp]

No, that's not my personal issue right now. I am consolidating what I remember of feedback given to multiple people, including me, over the last few years. But skiing without boots buckled for a few runs can teach you (any you) a lot about how you typically pressure their boots, and whether or not that pressure is necessary or desirable.

Yes, I have clients/students/folks in clinics unbuckle their boots on occasion as needed. For young little rippers having trouble skiing powder, it's often a breakthrough.., they can finally flex their ankles and not be in the backseat. Yes, I have them keep their power straps on, etc... Not out to endanger or harm anyone.

IMH experience, there's very often a disconnect caused by the crush the cuff mantra. Most skiers who crush the cuff do so with their pelvis following the direction of their skis, which is usually across rather than down the hill... Cuff crushed for a few turns until the 'following' gets them back and in, now in the back seat, and the coach saying 'your in the back seat!' All I can say is its either a misunderstanding on the coach's part, or the student. I spent several sessions with someone I couldn't beg borrow or steal their way out of crushing the front of the cuff. One day offer beating heads against the wall, they realized the cuff is a partial cylinder in shape, and that they could maintain contact AND direct pressure from tipping the feet and engaging the shin against the cuff ( 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock to make a gross simplification for the sake of typing while exhausted). Then things started to click. They started managing forces rather than trying to create them. Bumps improved, tails stopped washing out, etc...

Cuff contact is your friend. Hanging out over your toes and out of sagital balance isn't. The guy in the green pants in the avatar hopefully is an example of the former, not the latter.

 

[Olesya C]

I remember there was this thread in summer:
https://forum.pugski.com/threads/an...rallel-progression-to-adult-never-evers.2243/

I don't think anyone brought up this thread yet, unless I missed it. Judging from above thread there are instructors that teach direct to parallel approach. Also Whiteface (near Lake Placid NY) advertises direct to parallel as their signature method for beginners.
http://www.whiteface.com/mountain/lessons-programs

I happened to poke around on Whiteface web-site for early season lift ticket deals for a short early season trip and saw their "Parallel from the Start" advertisement for ski school.

I learned to ski as an adult, 6 years ago. I learned in a wedge and that was good for me because I had a lot of fear of speed in the beginning. I would agree with @skibob that transition to parallel from wedge was kind of on/off switch for me too, not a gradual transition.

The drills mentioned - javelin turn, the white pass and thousand steps are great drills. I have attempted all of them at one point or another in my many lessons as directed by the instructor, I am not great at them. The easiest one for me at this point is the javelin turns, the white pass is quite challenging, although not impossible and thousand steps is somewhere in between in difficulty, doable but not easy.

 

[Mendieta]

I remember there was this thread in summer:
https://forum.pugski.com/threads/an...rallel-progression-to-adult-never-evers.2243/

I don't think anyone brought up this thread yet, unless I missed it. Judging from above thread there are instructors that teach direct to parallel approach. Also Whiteface (near Lake Placid NY) advertises direct to parallel as their signature method for beginners.
http://www.whiteface.com/mountain/lessons-programs

I happened to poke around on Whiteface web-site for early season lift ticket deals for a short early season trip and saw their "Parallel from the Start" advertisement for ski school.

I learned to ski as an adult, 6 years ago. I learned in a wedge and that was good for me because I had a lot of fear of speed in the beginning. I would agree with @skibob that transition to parallel from wedge was kind of on/off switch for me too, not a gradual transition.

The drills mentioned - javelin turn, the white pass and thousand steps are great drills. I have attempted all of them at one point or another in my many lessons as directed by the instructor, I am not great at them. The easiest one for me at this point is the javelin turns, the white pass is quite challenging, although not impossible and thousand steps is somewhere in between in difficulty, doable but not easy.

Fantastic info, @Olesya C , all along, including the relative difficulty of all these drills. I only tried a little bit of javelin of all three, but this is my year, or so I say. I'll hopefully take some more instruction, as well, The biggest issue is how often I can get to the snow, we'll see

You are right, nobody mentioned that thread, and I hadn't seen it. I wasn't in the forums, at the time, either. Cheers!

 

[Don in Morrison]

White pass: I didn't know it had a name. I probably tried a half-dozen turns like that just to sort out balance and edging before trying my first Reuel, oh so many years ago. That first one didn't look much like Art Furrer, but hey, ya gotta start somewhere.

 

[Josh Matta]

White pass is less about inside ski balance, and more about dynamic balance and the ability to move the COM effectively inside of the new turn in a progressive manner.