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Of pizzas and french fries

Mendieta

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Pizza, Pizza! The yell comes from mom/dad/coach/instructor/SO, as a helpless soul tries to stop with the awkward wedged skidding technique. I've seen countless cases of that, or people trying really hard to break out of the V shaped skiing habit. If they are kids, they are moving into "french fries" (parallel).

Which brings me to an honest question. Why is it that people are taught this way? It seems pretty standard. It seems to me that it takes a lot of effort to break out of the habit, and it really buys you very little. You only need it in the lift line, as far as I can tell. I actually remember a post from @Tricia where she mentions that as an instructor, she would take intermediates to a relatively steep slope and make sure they can side-slip and hockey stop. It makes a lot of sense to me. This was the second thing I learned, on my second day as a skier, and I'm grateful to the instructor.

Anyways, I am genuinely curious why people are not initiated in parallel, skidded turns. As an absolute beginner, I found pivoting and hokcey stopping much more natural, and easier, than trying to create an edge from a wedged position. Definitely, much more effective. I know I must be missing something ...

Cheers!
 

Monique

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You only need it in the lift line, as far as I can tell.

I can't speak to your main question very well, but I guarantee you that everyone will find a use for the wedge when they're in challenging terrain. It's a necessary skill.
 

Uncle-A

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Years ago they did try a method of teaching to ski without the wedge. They started with very short skis and gradually got to longer skis teaching parallel turn from day one. It was called GLM = Graduated Length Method. The first length was 100 CM next was 120 CM and last was 150 CM after that most skiers ended up on 160 CM or 170 CM. The skier was sliding or skidding turns not carving turns but if you wanted to get someone skiing fast it did the job. It was the way I got my girlfriend now my wife to ski and it worked for me until she skied with some other woman that did not learn that way and she picked up a wedge from them.
 

Pete in Idaho

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I think it is a matter of control and teaching people to ski in control for the safety of themselves and others. I have only seen one pupil a 14yr old girl go right to french fries and after 1 hour on the snow she was making pretty good parallel turns. Someone else here can probably answer your question better and may even have to history behind the "Snowplow-wedge" teaching methods. I can attest to the fact that parallel turns were much more difficult on old straight skis and turning the "new" skis is really easy in comparison. Maybe it is time to let the snowplow go into history as a beginner teaching method. It will still be useful in some terrain applications.
 

Monique

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One of our instructors will come here soon, I'm sure, and describe the difference between the gliding wedge and the braking wedge.
 
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Mendieta

Mendieta

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I think it is a matter of control and teaching people to ski in control for the safety of themselves and others.

Absolutely, you would still need to learn how to break, first. I was thinking folks could start with the hockey-stop.

I can attest to the fact that parallel turns were much more difficult on old straight skis and turning the "new" skis is really easy in comparison.

Great point!

Maybe it is time to let the snowplow go into history as a beginner teaching method. It will still be useful in some terrain applications.
but I guarantee you that everyone will find a use for the wedge when they're in challenging terrain

Yes! hadn't thought about someone on a tight spot needing to quickly break with the plow. I've definitely seen over the top heli-skiers do that, especially at the top of the mountain, before starting their run. What else could you do? Thanks for pointing it out! More of a reason to learn it, the question is still, when is it optimal to teach it.
 

Jilly

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First off, little kids do not have the muscle mass, co-ordination or attention span for a long drawn out lesson. Kids lessons need to be safe and fun. Wedge turns or pizza works for them. They will move into parallel very quickly. An adult usually wants control. Depending on their physically fitness and past experience (XC skiing, hockey etc) they can move very quickly with the CSIA - Fast track to Parallel system. But not everyone teaching it.

Teaching hockey stops is part of that progression. But is not a first timer lesson skill for sure. Just let them stand up and slide!
 

cantunamunch

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Don't think of the wedge as a braking-to-a-stop tool. Think of the wedge as a speed modulation tool (I need to slow down just *this* much), and one that doesn't require large balance changes. It's a tool to feel in control, not a tool to stop.

Doing that with semi-parallel skis is not quite so easy - and the proof is the bad habits of windshield wipering and heel pushing that hockey stoppers develop when they try to modulate speed instead of getting rid of it entirely.

FWIW hockey stops are dead-easy on the old gear. Much easier than proper parallel turns. And so bad habits were all over.
 
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Mendieta

Mendieta

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Don't think of the wedge as a braking-to-a-stop tool. Think of the wedge as a speed modulation tool (I need to slow down just *this* much), and one that doesn't require large balance changes. It's a tool to feel in control, not a tool to stop.

Doing that with semi-parallel skis is not quite so easy - and the proof is the bad habits of windshield wipering and heel pushing that hockey stoppers develop when they try to modulate speed instead of getting rid of it entirely.

Funny, because I always thought that the reason for the behavior you describe was the initiation through the wedge, and not being a "hockey stopper". For modulation, a smooth, parallel, pivoted turn with some edging to scrape the snow seems much better (to me) than wedging. Isn't that what they called a "brushed" turn, sometimes? If anything, wedging means pushing both heels out. Hockey stop could encourage "elephant turns" where you pivot the skis without upper body separation, no? Just some thoughts. I love talking about these things :)

FWIW, I don't tend to stop with a snowplow (except perhaps the lift line). But I see people in steeper-than-they-can-handle slopes desperately trying to stop with a plow, just to slide indefinitely ... until something in the terrain completely stops them.
 

cantunamunch

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What you're describing is a high level skill, particularly to skiers who are possibly highly nervous about speed, most particularly if we're trying to get them to balance on the outside ski in turns.

Sure, a snowplow is really only good for stopping from low speeds and in confined spaces. Like liftlines.
 

coskigirl

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To expand on Jilly's thoughts, young children usually ('cause there's always an exception) don't have the muscle tone and strength to perform a parallel turn or do a hockey stop. Hockey stops and edge control (slide slipping) take quite a bit of coordination as well which is difficult for young skiers. Adults, well, I've never taught one from never ever stage so I'll stay out of that side of it.
 

cantunamunch

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To expand on Jilly's thoughts, young children usually ('cause there's always an exception) don't have the muscle tone and strength to perform a parallel turn or do a hockey stop. Hockey stops and edge control (slide slipping) take quite a bit of coordination as well which is difficult for young skiers. Adults, well, I've never taught one from never ever stage so I'll stay out of that side of it.

I think of it as: for a wedge the static balance condition is exactly the same as the dynamic balance condition - *not* true of hockey stops.
 

Monique

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Funny, because I always thought that the reason for the behavior you describe was the initiation through the wedge, and not being a "hockey stopper". For modulation, a smooth, parallel, pivoted turn with some edging to scrape the snow seems much better (to me) than wedging. Isn't that what they called a "brushed" turn, sometimes? If anything, wedging means pushing both heels out. Hockey stop could encourage "elephant turns" where you pivot the skis without upper body separation, no? Just some thoughts. I love talking about these things :)

FWIW, I don't tend to stop with a snowplow (except perhaps the lift line). But I see people in steeper-than-they-can-handle slopes desperately trying to stop with a plow, just to slide indefinitely ... until something in the terrain completely stops them.

Some places where wedges are useful and appropriate:

Traverses (common in bowls and trees to get to "the good stuff"). There's a track maybe twice as wide as your ski stance, sometimes less. Sometimes huge whoop de doos - things that in another context would be called kickers - roots, rocks, etc, not to mention blind turns where there may be a skier stuck on the other side. You need control. There is a technique some instructors taught me of skiing along the low side with your skis pointed in modestly (so that your tails are hanging off the side in the air) and taking advantage of the soft snow that gets brushed to the side, but that's a pretty flipping difficult move to manage, mentally as much as physically. You need complete edge control and a lot of confidence. So. Wedge turns.

Trees in general are a place where a wedge or wedge christie might be appropriate. There isn't enough room to hockey stop, and techniques for slow skiing can be tricky in tight spaces (unless maybe you're Bob Barnes).

So, yeah. When you're mostly skiing groomers, you might get to a point where you only use a wedge in the lift line, and wonder what the point is - although I would say that being able to safely navigate the lift line is a critical skill, not a nice to have. I used to disdain the wedge. But now, it's another tool in my tool box.

Again, none of which to comment on when it's appropriate to teach what. Wedges are an underappreciated skill.
 

crgildart

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All skiers, even top level ski in the slightest if slight wedge. If you ski in a full fledged true parallel you will find yourself hooking the inside edges and face planting tips out over and over. It's the avoidance of that that hedges us to very slight wedges all the time when turning.

I confess I am guilty of causing my oldest to be stuck in the power plow for too long in the learning curve. But, that was out of the selfish fact that he could keep up with me on more difficult terrain more easily via that technique than if I has spent more time with him on harder greens and easy blues really working more on the parallel instead of dragging him and his comfortable plow to the blacks.
 

Nancy Hummel

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In summary:

1. Many adults that come to a first time skier lesson (Level 1) are nervous and some are terrified. They want to know how to stop before they are willing to go.
2. There are different kinds of wedges. You have the dead end, push your heels out to an edge lock wedge or you can teach people to turn their legs on a flat ski and then spread their legs to a stop wedge. Teaching leg rotational movements transitions nicely to parallel turns without ever having to unlearn the movements.
3. Sideslips and edge release drills combined with leg rotation skills lead many first day skiers to very nice wedge Christy or even basis parallel turns very quickly.

Many of the children you see being yelled to "pizza" by their parents are likely doing the heel push variety of wedge and are on terrain that is too steep for their ability.
 

Tricia

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In summary:

1. Many adults that come to a first time skier lesson (Level 1) are nervous and some are terrified. They want to know how to stop before they are willing to go.
2. There are different kinds of wedges. You have the dead end, push your heels out to an edge lock wedge or you can teach people to turn their legs on a flat ski and then spread their legs to a stop wedge. Teaching leg rotational movements transitions nicely to parallel turns without ever having to unlearn the movements.
3. Sideslips and edge release drills combined with leg rotation skills lead many first day skiers to very nice wedge Christy or even basis parallel turns very quickly.

Many of the children you see being yelled to "pizza" by their parents are likely doing the heel push variety of wedge and are on terrain that is too steep for their ability.
This ^^^^^
Also, don't you think that (quite often) parents who are yelling pizza to their kids are probably over terraining them?
 

crgildart

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This ^^^^^
Also, don't you think that (quite often) parents who are yelling pizza to their kids are probably over terraining them?

Guilty! I already admitted it hahaha.. but I didn't have to yell. He did it on his own when he needed to check speed.

I take shortcuts with my own kids that I never would have taken with paying students when I was teaching. I do try to get them in a couple of privates each season with current trained active instructors though since I'm such a slacker now!
 

Jilly

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Another thing - stand on the hill as if you were traversing in the wedge. Your weight is on the downhill ski because of gravity. If you change to a parallel position, what moved? Just your top ski. The bottom ski remained where is was. The wedge is a foundation too for parallel skiing. You need to build on that outside ski platform.
 

ToddW

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All skiers, even top level ski in the slightest if slight wedge. If you ski in a full fledged true parallel you will find yourself hooking the inside edges and face planting tips out over and over. It's the avoidance of that that hedges us to very slight wedges all the time when turning.

Respectfully, I disagree with this. I try to ski parallel. If I err to one side, it is to ski slightly bowlegged rather than to ski slightly to the knockkneed / wedge side. I take lessons from a former PSIA Demo Team member and national ski team athlete. His turns have no wedge to them whatsoever, not even under high-res video analysis.

I don't recall "catching an edge" or "hooking the inside edges" so I can't comment on that.
 

Monique

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Yeah, I'm not sure about the slight wedge thing. I don't know why parallel would hook inside edges more than wedging.
 

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