Of pizzas and french fries

[cantunamunch]

Yeah, I'm not sure about the slight wedge thing. I don't know why parallel would hook inside edges more than wedging.

Err, 'coz when wedging the 'inside' foot LTE is up and off the snow and pointed nowhere near the presumed direction of motion?

AFAICT, in order to 'hook' that edge, i.e. cause that edge to have directional control over your skiing, you'd have to do a superman, a salsa hip twist and have a velocity component in the approximate direction of your opposite shoulder, at approximately the same time...

whereas 'hooking' i.e. putting too much pressure on the LTE of your inside foot is a commonplace amongst parallel beginners who don't quite have their lateral balance right.

 

[Monique]

Err, 'coz when wedging the 'inside' foot LTE is up and off the snow and pointed nowhere near the presumed direction of motion?

AFAICT, in order to 'hook' that edge, i.e. cause that edge to have directional control over your skiing, you'd have to do a superman, a salsa hip twist and have a velocity component in the approximate direction of your opposite shoulder, at approximately the same time...

whereas 'hooking' i.e. putting too much pressure on the LTE of your inside foot is a commonplace amongst parallel beginners who don't quite have their lateral balance right.

Okay, I can see that. I was thinking of a braking wedge where you have both skis angled in, so you're on the inside edge on both, so it's like, twice the hooking opportunity!

Hooking is just imperfect edge control (plus sometimes snow snakes), right?

 

[cantunamunch]

I classify hooking as really due to lateral balance badness.

In your 2BTE's-engaged-at-once example, either the only way to hook is by very large balance shifts, or, somehow, only one edge is/was truly engaged at the start of the exercise.

 

[Monique]

I classify hooking as really due to lateral balance badness.

In your 2BTE's-engaged-at-once example, either the only way to hook is by very large balance shifts, or, somehow, only one edge is/was truly engaged at the start of the exercise.

So is hooking = overweighting one of the skis' edges?

 

[Mendieta]

So is hooking = overweighting one of the skis' edges?

I guess that makes me ... a hooker?

 

[Don in Morrison]

The same bad balance condition can lead to hooking a lightly weighted BTE on the outside ski or an over-weighted LTE on the inside. If your balance is right, you could pick up the outside ski and glide around the turn on the inside only. (Reuel, anyone?)

 

[skibob]

I had a very hard time going from wedge to parallel. I had to stop taking lessons for awhile because it seemed like everybody wanted me to learn gradually how to do a very different thing (parallel) than I was already doing (wedging). It felt bizarre and unnatural and very much like, "I just taught you a bad habit, now you've got to unlearn it by learning a bunch of intermediate steps that you will never use again". I taught myself to parallel and it wasn't a gradual transition. It was on/off. Once I was parallel turning--quite poorly tbh--I went into lessons again as a parallel turner and advanced relatively quickly from there. Fortunately I'm terribly stubborn, and already knew I loved skiing even though I couldn't do it worth a damn, or I'd have given up.

I'm abnormally cerebral and linear, and I understand that. But I am convinced that tere is at least a subset of us who do very poorly with the whole wedge to parallel thing.

I've had some success in teaching parallel not as a progression from the wedge, but as its own unique thing (although never with a true beginner). My son was stuck last year in exactly the same way I had been early on. And he is Mini Me in every way (except much better looking). So I took him to a very (very) gentle slope. I isolated absolutely everything except initiating a turn with the inside (uphill) ski. I said, bend that knee while moving that ski a little ahead of the other one. As I am sure you can foresee, this initiates a parallel turn. Putting the skis up on edge and completing the turn just comes naturally from there. Voila. He went from skiing in a wedge (a true and only wedge, had made absolutely zero progress toward parallel) to parallel skiing on black diamonds comfortably, in about two hours. Yes, I know, but he is an ambitious and competitive kid and the black diamond was his "reward" for doing so well. Trust me, this kid could wear down anybody. And he skied it (several times) with absolutely zero need for "compensating" or emergency maneuvers. He still has lots to learn of course, but one f the cool things about this approach is that you very quickly become able to ski and feel the hill and progress organically just by getting out and skiing. He'll be in lessons again this winter and I am very excited about this year for him.

My daughter has a lot of "fear" psychological interference with getting her skis together and trusting the edges. But she made good progress with this basic approach too. So much so that my wife even consented to try it this winter. We are two people who can't row a canoe together, so we'll see how this goes! SHe skis parallel, but skids her turns and struggles to link turns some times.

I remain convinced there is a better way to teach than the wedge. And truly, I don't find that I use it except in very, very limited circumstances. Even where space is limited, like an icy, crowded cat track, I find that I "swish" the tails of my skis, or simply slide downhill in a modified side slip to scrub off speed w/o taking up a lot of real estate. I think I might use a wedge in a lift line once in a blue moon. But usually, the only pizza I make has cheese and sauce on it.

 

[skibob]

I guess that makes me ... a hooker?

Its okay. We've all been hookers, and still are once in awhile. I mean, in the way you are saying.

 

[Monique]

So much so that my wife even consented to try it this winter. We are two people who can't row a canoe together, so we'll see how this goes!

Honestly? You'd be better off telling a friend verbatim what to say, then having the friend teach her.

 

[Uncle-A]

Many of us that had to learn to parallel ski years ago on straight skis with a 0/0 grind and 200 CM length did so as a result of hard work and practice. I called it the Austrian method but I am told it is the Arlberg method. It started with the "Snowplow" next was the "Stem Christy" and last was "Parallel" bending the knees to 'Unweight" the ski enabling the skier to turn the ski also moving the uphill ski forward and the down hill ski back so the skier could tuck the down hill knee behind the uphill knee to create better angle on the downhill ski and at the same time you had to plant the pole and ski around it. The tough part was moving from picking up the ski from Stem Christy to Parallel. Now they do not want you to ski as tight of a parallel because of the fat skis, us old timers found it easy to transition from straight skis to shape skis but now to fat skis is not as easy.

 

[skibob]

Honestly? You'd be better off telling a friend verbatim what to say, then having the friend teach her.

So very true. We were at Heavenly one day last year on a true powder day (about 2'+). It was late and we stood at the top of a seriously bumped out blue run. I'd been down it already and the bumps were taller than my waist in places. Not Sierra Cement, but far, far from soft and pliable.

I said to her (and my daughter who was also a little freaked out): its only steep right here at the lip, and then its actually quite mellow. Just go slowly and make your turns around the bumps."

No way. She wants to take our skis off, and walk about 100' laterally with a 30' rise to go over to the other run we saw from the lift. To be fair, it was less treacherous looking, but who wants to climb? I argued with her for a couple of minutes and gave up. We took our skis off (I couldn't abandon her and my daughter) and started walking. Before we got far, an instructor stops with two students and asks if we are alright. My wife explains that we are going over that hump there to the easier run on the other side because these bumps are just too big.

He smiles and says "its only steep right here at the lip, and then its actually quite mellow. Just go slowly and make your turns around the bumps." Yeah, so close to word for word what I said, that I start laughing and muttered "good luck".

What does my wife say? "OK" and starts putting on her skis.

But she has seen the wonders I worked with my son with this approach, so I think she is actually motivated to try it. Believe me, I will abandon at the first sign of resistance . And we haven't shared a canoe in years. Secret to a successful marriage . . .

 

[Monique]

So very true. We were at Heavenly one day last year on a true powder day (about 2'+). It was late and we stood at the top of a seriously bumped out blue run. I'd been down it already and the bumps were taller than my waist in places. Not Sierra Cement, but far, far from soft and pliable.

I said to her (and my daughter who was also a little freaked out): its only steep right here at the lip, and then its actually quite mellow. Just go slowly and make your turns around the bumps."

No way. She wants to take our skis off, and walk about 100' laterally with a 30' rise to go over to the other run we saw from the lift. To be fair, it was less treacherous looking, but who wants to climb? I argued with her for a couple of minutes and gave up. We took our skis off (I couldn't abandon her and my daughter) and started walking. Before we got far, an instructor stops with two students and asks if we are alright. My wife explains that we are going over that hump there to the easier run on the other side because these bumps are just too big.

He smiles and says "its only steep right here at the lip, and then its actually quite mellow. Just go slowly and make your turns around the bumps." Yeah, so close to word for word what I said, that I start laughing and muttered "good luck".

What does my wife say? "OK" and starts putting on her skis.

But she has seen the wonders I worked with my son with this approach, so I think she is actually motivated to try it. Believe me, I will abandon at the first sign of resistance . And we haven't shared a canoe in years. Secret to a successful marriage . . .

So here's a question for you. Had you ever actually skied the lip and the run in question?

 

[Pete in Idaho]

Mendieta, told you a lot of answers were coming.

 

[Mendieta]

Mendieta, told you a lot of answers were coming.

Yes, Pete, but the question above from @Monique ... is a trap!!!!!! Run @skibob , run!!!!!

 

[Mendieta]

In summary:

1. Many adults that come to a first time skier lesson (Level 1) are nervous and some are terrified. They want to know how to stop before they are willing to go.
2. There are different kinds of wedges. You have the dead end, push your heels out to an edge lock wedge or you can teach people to turn their legs on a flat ski and then spread their legs to a stop wedge. Teaching leg rotational movements transitions nicely to parallel turns without ever having to unlearn the movements.
3. Sideslips and edge release drills combined with leg rotation skills lead many first day skiers to very nice wedge Christy or even basis parallel turns very quickly.

Many of the children you see being yelled to "pizza" by their parents are likely doing the heel push variety of wedge and are on terrain that is too steep for their ability.

Lots of insight, Nancy. Basically, your point is that there is room for both at the very beginning:

You are right, I was referring to the heel-push, inside edged wedge. I completely relate to @skibob 's experience. I am still trying to get my 9 years old to get more in parallel after two years. She definitely has the strength. One of the side effects of sticking too long with the wedge is that it promotes wider than ideal foot separation, it seems to me.

In any case, this has been a fun discussion so far, and very informative, at least for me. Thank you all! Keep it coming! Pizza is on me!

 

[Guy in Shorts]

Learned to ski using the ever popular method of following a friend. Going to the top and heading down the steepest trails I quickly learned how to sideslip rather then wedge to survive. Pretty much still doing the same thing 40 years later.

 

[skibob]

So here's a question for you. Had you ever actually skied the lip and the run in question?

"I'd been down it already and the bumps were taller than my waist in places."

 

[skibob]

I completely relate to @skibob 's experience. I am still trying to get my 9 years old to get more in parallel after two years. She definitely has the strength. One of the side effects of sticking too long with the wedge is that it promotes wider than ideal foot separation, it seems to me.

Same with my 11 year old daughter. A couple of people have mentioned "strength" in the context of whether someone is strong enough to ski parallel. My take is that skiing parallel takes a lot less strength. This is based on a sample size of 1. But my boy is the skinniest little thing you've ever seen and not strong at all. 7yrs old and not yet 45 lbs. And pretty tall. Not only does he say its easier, as soon as we accomplished that, he wanted to ski all day. Before he would be exhausted after 4-5hrs. I am sure the fun factor helps, but I am not sure the argument about strength doesn't flip.

 

[crgildart]

Respectfully, I disagree with this. I try to ski parallel. If I err to one side, it is to ski slightly bowlegged rather than to ski slightly to the knockkneed / wedge side. I take lessons from a former PSIA Demo Team member and national ski team athlete. His turns have no wedge to them whatsoever, not even under high-res video analysis.

I don't recall "catching an edge" or "hooking the inside edges" so I can't comment on that.

Yeah, I'm not sure about the slight wedge thing. I don't know why parallel would hook inside edges more than wedging.

There is a brief moment when both skis are flat in transition and inside edges have weight on them. The hourglass shape of the ski ensures that they will NEVER be 100% parallel and, in fact, the front half inside edges of both skis forms a slight wedge shape being fatter at the tips and skinnier under foot.

All skiers on cambered skis are very likely skiing a slight wedge unless the tips are diverging, tips out that results in faceplant more often than not.

 

[Mendieta]

Same with my 11 year old daughter. A couple of people have mentioned "strength" in the context of whether someone is strong enough to ski parallel. My take is that skiing parallel takes a lot less strength. This is based on a sample size of 1. But my boy is the skinniest little thing you've ever seen and not strong at all. 7yrs old and not yet 45 lbs. And pretty tall. Not only does he say its easier, as soon as we accomplished that, he wanted to ski all day. Before he would be exhausted after 4-5hrs. I am sure the fun factor helps, but I am not sure the argument about strength doesn't flip.

Agree. Heck, my stance is also wider than I would like to, a lot of the time, probably also due to having learned in the progression from wedged turns to parallel. But I have to say, my youngest kid was 7 when she started. We all started at the same time: she had had mild asthma, so, even though I was _hoping_ to start earlier, we would not leave her behind. Once she grew out of her asthma, we headed to the mountains But I digress. I can still see how very little learners might struggle pivoting. And how terrified adults might really need to start with the whole , gradual progression from wedge. I do feel like Same way that I think I would have learned better/faster with a more direct method. And you provide a few examples as well. Cheers!