I would like to date myself here and put a vote in for the grandfather of what we now consider "modern" mogul skiing,- Jack Taylor. It's near impossible to find footage of him ( Winter Equinox?) but I had the pleasure of seeing him ski around 1974 and I was in complete awe as was everyone else including his fellow competitors. Mogul courses were not as standardized then and there was more stylistic and technical variations between competitors . IMO, any discussion of great mogul skiers has to include little Jack just as any discussion on automotive history would have to include Henry Ford.
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Mogul G.O.A.T.
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According to the comments there's a couple of seconds of Jack Taylor at 1:23 in this vid.
As someone who got the aforementioned tips from Jonny himself on a few occasions (free public clinics) and benefited from them.tremendously, I respectfully disagree with your assesment. His technique may not be completely suitable to a modern mogul course with faster tighter zipline trajectories but it works wonders in real-world bumps. And he is an A-Mazing skier, a real sight to behold on any terrain.
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That video mentioned in post 9 is an important tip for uniform and non uniform bump formations. It tells me that those who negatively criticize it do not understand what is needed to ski a direct line in the bumps. What Moseley is showing and explaining is about getting ready early. Meaning you want to get that weight onto the new down hill as fast as you can. This happens just before clearing the crest of the bump, you want to explode or jump off the old downhill ski. Once cleared, get that weight onto the new downhill ski. And yes, some do it with an up un-weighted movement, in fact, I find those who still have this skill are ones who can make really make gracefull and smooth turns in the bumps. Below is a drill of this concept, getting ready early done by a freestyle team.
@jack97, it looks to me like there's a bit of a disconnect between what I, as a PSIA instructor, and the comp mogul folk, would use as terminology but perhaps not in substance. When Moseley demonstrates jumping to the new downhill ski, many of the results are really the new outside ski when it would still be in the uphill orientation. A PSIA instructor would refer to that as the new outside ski rather than the new downhill ski. Or am I missing something, e.g. that the ski is supposed to not to engage in the top half of the turn, but only the bottom? We've tried to stop using the terms uphill and downhill ski and instead use inside and outside.
Here in Aspen, we are working to have early pressure on the new outside ski. In fact, one of our training mantra's of the last couple of years has been that pressure is moving, or has moved, to the new outside ski before edge change. It doesn't seem to me that that is inconsistent with what you seem to be advocating, but I'm just trying to clarify if there is consistency or not.
Mike
Here in Aspen, we are working to have early pressure on the new outside ski. In fact, one of our training mantra's of the last couple of years has been that pressure is moving, or has moved, to the new outside ski before edge change. It doesn't seem to me that that is inconsistent with what you seem to be advocating, but I'm just trying to clarify if there is consistency or not.
Mike
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those are very close to sequential hop turns. A task that various PSIA regions have used for the L3 in the past.
There are lots of different styles of mogul skiing that often seem to get lumped together as the same zipper line skiing by those that don't really take an interest. So, it's not unreasonable to hear different emphasis or perspectives from great mogul skiers. Looking at the video with Moseley, early on the backside of the bump seems to be pretty well shared as an important technique for speed control. A number of modern day mogul instructors will talk about pulling that downhill foot back to get forward pressure early. The part in the video I haven't really heard from other people is to jump. I don't jump or explode, but I don't ski as fast as Moseley. I use the bump to up-unweight, but otherwise I'd follow Moseley's advice with the addition of pulling the feet back. Maybe at world cup speeds, A&E and jumping in that split second become essentially the same motion? Though, I have heard the Canadians talk about absorption being active and extension as being passive, "take your time extending". Taking your time extending isn't really jumping or exploding. You can hear it discussed in this video at 5:50. Also, at 5:00, Alex Bilodeau discusses getting forward pressure early on the backside which is similar to Moseley. Looking at their flat skiing at 3:20, they say you want the same pressure at the beginning of the turn as at the end of the turn, which is closer to what I work on without an up-unweight other than shifting weight from one cuff to the other. My guess is that there's been a shift in technique to a modern day approach that has a greater emphasis on pulling the feet back which allows a passive extension with speed control that is more efficient.
Thanks for that Canadian mogul skiing video "skier" although we are now sliding a wee off topic haha into technique. But that is fine as we're about done with GOAT.
I liked the early emphasis in your video on being able to make short quick turns on flat moderate gradient groomed slopes as demonstrated. I do that frequently that draws a lot of chairlift gawking but rarely see any others do so and know from experience challenging average advanced intermediate skiers to do so shows they almost never can when they first try. But if you can't do that on easy flat slopes, you won't be able to do what I am doing in irregular mogul terrain. If one watches closely, one can also see the slight tip lead changing I mention below.
Again per my post #14 on page 1, Jonny is saying "jump" because of the unsophisticated general audience he is talking to in order to emphasize not just riding a ski around. When you watch what he actually does demonstrating that, he is not jumping up as in bouncing up off the ski rebound at all, but rather "jumping" down slope to an immediately edge, that as I noted is necessary to maintain the quiet upper straight back stack center of gravity moving at a relative consistent down slope angle as shown in MickM's video. Let this humble non-instructor try and put this into words haha.
As legs had actively been pulling up in front as one passed a trough then compressed at a mogul bump, one's relaxed upper body momentum moves relatively forward so then leads at the mogul top while the legs momentarily staying compressed in front of the bump thus fall behind the upper body. At that jump initiation point, one is reaching down with wrist motion what had been the uphill pole while using a jumping rebound mindset with lower body rotation to initiate moving to the new downhill outside ski. The fact the upper body is now leading with the legs providing energy behind, allows leverage for the jump orientation to be forward downward instead of up.
During that ski edging transition, for most of us, there is also a subtle slight change in the relative tip position of the parallel skis due to a sort of stepping down motion during that quick jump phase. At bump compression, the inside uphill tip slightly leads that will reverse being behind the other tip into the new turn because one is changing to the opposite direction. Note some bump skiers with lucky leg and knee structure are able to keep their legs glued together monoski style so don't need to slightly switch tip leads and many are the best bump skiers.
If one is carrying a lot of speed as in JBL competition style OP video where speed means more judging points, one actually gets air before landing a bit lower down the downhill face of a bump closer to the trough. In some slush snow conditions, if many were pounding down the same zipper line so, that may cause a hole to form in troughs that the next morning I find difficult to ski through when snow is still firm frozen. By not edging down a mogul face one will accelerate due to gravity until pounding off the trough and bump. However for a slower less strenuous relaxed rec mogul style he also demonstrated in a jack's lower thread video, instead of air, per Jonny, one learns to immediately edge down into the back mogul face in order to reduce gravity accelerating speed.
One of the key differences between comp mogul and rec mogul skiing for this person is one does not need to be looking 3 moguls ahead because by going slower, one has more time to look. And that is not to say getting into a rhythm looking 3 moguls ahead ought not be a goal, but rather it is much more important when going fast because by looking down one won't have time to automatically adjust to upcoming bumps. When I am really confidently locked into the flow, I especially prefer to be looking down at next upcoming bumps in steeper larger moguls.
I liked the early emphasis in your video on being able to make short quick turns on flat moderate gradient groomed slopes as demonstrated. I do that frequently that draws a lot of chairlift gawking but rarely see any others do so and know from experience challenging average advanced intermediate skiers to do so shows they almost never can when they first try. But if you can't do that on easy flat slopes, you won't be able to do what I am doing in irregular mogul terrain. If one watches closely, one can also see the slight tip lead changing I mention below.
Again per my post #14 on page 1, Jonny is saying "jump" because of the unsophisticated general audience he is talking to in order to emphasize not just riding a ski around. When you watch what he actually does demonstrating that, he is not jumping up as in bouncing up off the ski rebound at all, but rather "jumping" down slope to an immediately edge, that as I noted is necessary to maintain the quiet upper straight back stack center of gravity moving at a relative consistent down slope angle as shown in MickM's video. Let this humble non-instructor try and put this into words haha.
As legs had actively been pulling up in front as one passed a trough then compressed at a mogul bump, one's relaxed upper body momentum moves relatively forward so then leads at the mogul top while the legs momentarily staying compressed in front of the bump thus fall behind the upper body. At that jump initiation point, one is reaching down with wrist motion what had been the uphill pole while using a jumping rebound mindset with lower body rotation to initiate moving to the new downhill outside ski. The fact the upper body is now leading with the legs providing energy behind, allows leverage for the jump orientation to be forward downward instead of up.
During that ski edging transition, for most of us, there is also a subtle slight change in the relative tip position of the parallel skis due to a sort of stepping down motion during that quick jump phase. At bump compression, the inside uphill tip slightly leads that will reverse being behind the other tip into the new turn because one is changing to the opposite direction. Note some bump skiers with lucky leg and knee structure are able to keep their legs glued together monoski style so don't need to slightly switch tip leads and many are the best bump skiers.
If one is carrying a lot of speed as in JBL competition style OP video where speed means more judging points, one actually gets air before landing a bit lower down the downhill face of a bump closer to the trough. In some slush snow conditions, if many were pounding down the same zipper line so, that may cause a hole to form in troughs that the next morning I find difficult to ski through when snow is still firm frozen. By not edging down a mogul face one will accelerate due to gravity until pounding off the trough and bump. However for a slower less strenuous relaxed rec mogul style he also demonstrated in a jack's lower thread video, instead of air, per Jonny, one learns to immediately edge down into the back mogul face in order to reduce gravity accelerating speed.
One of the key differences between comp mogul and rec mogul skiing for this person is one does not need to be looking 3 moguls ahead because by going slower, one has more time to look. And that is not to say getting into a rhythm looking 3 moguls ahead ought not be a goal, but rather it is much more important when going fast because by looking down one won't have time to automatically adjust to upcoming bumps. When I am really confidently locked into the flow, I especially prefer to be looking down at next upcoming bumps in steeper larger moguls.
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Getting early pressure has been the mantra from most coaches and former competitors. Its how they can ski with speed and control.
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That segment about extension being passive and "take your time extending" was in the absorption tank, the spacing on the rollers are far apart. I can see how slowing it down on the back side would force one to be really forward to drive the tips on the upcoming wave.
I never heard of the extension begin passive and taking your time extending in a bump formation with turns involved. .
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Totally agree about the "jumping" down slope to an immediate edge. That is done by pushing off laterally from the weighted downhill/outside ski. If jump or push is non pc, other words that work for me is to project the mass over to the new outside ski (after cresting the bump).
How much speed you carry and how much control you want is determine by how you use the back side of the bump. If I want to slow it down, I bring that edge on the backside fast so that I can steer to a wider turn. Carmichael explains this in the vid below.
An old tech competitors use on the backside is to use the legs to push off to accelerate into the back part of the turn.
@Mike King, do you know why trainers promote "early pressure on the new outside ski" instead of "early weight transfer" to that ski? Or late weight transfer? This is a semantic question but it carries movement pattern content.
When people say "early weight transfer," that can happen as a result of several movements. One can remove weight from the new inside ski by lifting it or lightening it, both of which transfer "weight" to the new outside ski by default.
When people say "early pressure," it sounds like they mean something beyond "weight," something resulting from some kind of pressing... thus "early pressure" seems to mean extending off that new outside leg while it's still on its LTE, to "press" downward and put "weight" onto that ski.
"Early pressure" implies an extension to initiate a turn. "Weight transfer" allows for flexing to initiate the turn. And Delayed weight transfer implies yet another way of initiating. I'm wondering why the exclusive love for early pressure.
Your post above sounds like PSIA and/or your mountain trainers are exclusively promoting an extension move to start new turns. Is that the case? How come such an exclusive approach to turn initiation? You're not talking about bump turns only, are you?
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When you have that cozy warm feeling thinking you understand your world, in comes the Canadians. It seems to me it's not uncommon to have inconsistent messages from great skiers. Check out this Canada freestyle instructional document.
http://www.freestylecanada.ski/files/resources/Moguls Module 2017 EN.pdf
Here are some interesting points related to arguments I've made in the past in this forum.
1. Just in the other thread I was talking about weight shift, but here they say, "In high level mogul skiing the weight bias is minimal (+/-5%) but exaggerated weight shift should be taught to ensure it is being performed correctly". Was I being taught an exaggerated weight shift, because I'm an amateur? Looking around at other sources it doesn't seem that way, but certainly with big forces and big drops in moguls you wouldn't be "landing" on one foot.
2. "Up unweighting is still used but it is done without lifting the entire body but rather legs pull up under the body to up-unweight the skis. (The body's center of mass should not lift during up unweight for mogul specific turns.)" This seems like a contradiction of terms, because I think without lifting the entire body it's not up-unweighting, it's called down unweighting, but certainly there isn't a jump.
3. "Shin pressure (ankle flexion) is maintained at all times throughout all range of motion." This matches what I've been taught, and speaks to some arguments I had in other threads about dolphin turns and whether that's part of mogul comp curriculum or not, and whether instructors break with comp technique when they release the shin pressure.
4. "Extension is generally a passive movement but can also be active in certain circumstances. Through extension the upper body must remain perpendicular to the slope, there should be no uphill movement of the upper body." This matches what I've been taught. One U.S. ski team member described to me that he doesn't even consider what he does as extension. He opens his hips clearing the bump pulling the feet back, then the legs straighten later as the skis rotate under him skiing on a curved surface. It's just a product of staying forward. Again, not explosion like Mosely describes.
5. "At all times, the feet must remain under the hip eliminating the need for the “backwards bike pedal”. Throughout absorption the hip must remain level and square and stay on top of the feet." How many times have we discussed the bicycle move in forums? The Canadians seem to match my independent thinking that attempts to create the bicycle move puts you further back which is contrary to modern mogul technique, though I would still argue that it will appear like they are doing the backwards bike pedal move even if they are always pressuring their shins.
http://www.freestylecanada.ski/files/resources/Moguls Module 2017 EN.pdf
Here are some interesting points related to arguments I've made in the past in this forum.
1. Just in the other thread I was talking about weight shift, but here they say, "In high level mogul skiing the weight bias is minimal (+/-5%) but exaggerated weight shift should be taught to ensure it is being performed correctly". Was I being taught an exaggerated weight shift, because I'm an amateur? Looking around at other sources it doesn't seem that way, but certainly with big forces and big drops in moguls you wouldn't be "landing" on one foot.
2. "Up unweighting is still used but it is done without lifting the entire body but rather legs pull up under the body to up-unweight the skis. (The body's center of mass should not lift during up unweight for mogul specific turns.)" This seems like a contradiction of terms, because I think without lifting the entire body it's not up-unweighting, it's called down unweighting, but certainly there isn't a jump.
3. "Shin pressure (ankle flexion) is maintained at all times throughout all range of motion." This matches what I've been taught, and speaks to some arguments I had in other threads about dolphin turns and whether that's part of mogul comp curriculum or not, and whether instructors break with comp technique when they release the shin pressure.
4. "Extension is generally a passive movement but can also be active in certain circumstances. Through extension the upper body must remain perpendicular to the slope, there should be no uphill movement of the upper body." This matches what I've been taught. One U.S. ski team member described to me that he doesn't even consider what he does as extension. He opens his hips clearing the bump pulling the feet back, then the legs straighten later as the skis rotate under him skiing on a curved surface. It's just a product of staying forward. Again, not explosion like Mosely describes.
5. "At all times, the feet must remain under the hip eliminating the need for the “backwards bike pedal”. Throughout absorption the hip must remain level and square and stay on top of the feet." How many times have we discussed the bicycle move in forums? The Canadians seem to match my independent thinking that attempts to create the bicycle move puts you further back which is contrary to modern mogul technique, though I would still argue that it will appear like they are doing the backwards bike pedal move even if they are always pressuring their shins.
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TS
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^^^ there are differences of opinions. Some coaches emphasize concepts that others would not agree with. For example, I read where several mogul coaches hates the "backward bike pedal".
Go watch the Stephen Fearing mogul video, he was the head coach for Canada's women moguls and lately the Russians. He has a different take on things compared what is currently coached for team Canada.
Go watch the Stephen Fearing mogul video, he was the head coach for Canada's women moguls and lately the Russians. He has a different take on things compared what is currently coached for team Canada.
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Skier,
1. weight bias is minimal - makes sense. If bias is forward, rotation will be around some point towards the tips with the heels sliding and displaced. Looking at Chuck Martin and Carmichael vids (as they ski today) they do quite big rotations (skis coming at nearly 90 degrees to the direction of travel at times) to reduce speed but it looks centered. Certainly those quick double turns as per young JLB (and today's Martin does them too) would be very hard if the weight isn't centered.
2. Up unweighting - Also heard it referred to as retraction - retract legs to body. As distinct from unweighting by jumping/popping which has a delay while the body moves up before it begins pulling the legs up.
3. Some ski instructors (JB and others) say they ski with shin contact all the time. One described it to me as his reference point. They say they do this whether they are forward, centered or back in the turn - good use of tibialis anterior I guess. Also had CSIA ski instructors get us to play the $20 bill game in the moguls. [Pretend there's a $20 bill pinned between shin and boot tongue and every time we lose contact it blows away. How costly was the run?] However I've not heard any of the CSIA folk propose putting a lot of pressure on the front of the boot. (JB does say that for high performance carving turns.)
On dolphin turns...the way I look at it the main thing is maintaining balance throughout the run. Now the feet will be slowed down as they meet the bump so to prevent the body from toppling over the feet we need to resist and/or anticipate. The size of any required response depends on the size of the bump, etc. Skiing with an upright stance does two things: allows better resistance/absorption of the upcoming load and lifting the knees in front of the torso (where the size of the bump requires) does re-position the BoS slightly ahead.
This winter I watched and overheard an APSI facilitator instructing his group - an L3 course by the standard of the skiing - to use an upright stance for that 1st reason. (I think the facilitator was Paul Lorenz but not sure.) Although I normally wouldn't read too much into 30 seconds overheard on the hill it is the stance we see many of the younger instructors (McGlashan, Lorenz, and others) use in their resort mogul vids.
Watching this vid (using slomo) of Nelson Carmichael in powder bumps in slomo shows what I mean on the second point. In this vid he isn't sliding into the bumps, probably because the pow was helping control speed or was thick enough to make that less of an option. (Or he'd had 2 coffees for breakfast...)
Or this one of some-one less immortal from a Donna Weinbrecht camp. (vid below for before/after viewing)
Dolphin moves are another option for resisting/anticipating. (Or just spicing up the run for fun.) It all depends on what the skier is trying to achieve and what terrain they encounter.
1. weight bias is minimal - makes sense. If bias is forward, rotation will be around some point towards the tips with the heels sliding and displaced. Looking at Chuck Martin and Carmichael vids (as they ski today) they do quite big rotations (skis coming at nearly 90 degrees to the direction of travel at times) to reduce speed but it looks centered. Certainly those quick double turns as per young JLB (and today's Martin does them too) would be very hard if the weight isn't centered.
2. Up unweighting - Also heard it referred to as retraction - retract legs to body. As distinct from unweighting by jumping/popping which has a delay while the body moves up before it begins pulling the legs up.
3. Some ski instructors (JB and others) say they ski with shin contact all the time. One described it to me as his reference point. They say they do this whether they are forward, centered or back in the turn - good use of tibialis anterior I guess. Also had CSIA ski instructors get us to play the $20 bill game in the moguls. [Pretend there's a $20 bill pinned between shin and boot tongue and every time we lose contact it blows away. How costly was the run?] However I've not heard any of the CSIA folk propose putting a lot of pressure on the front of the boot. (JB does say that for high performance carving turns.)
On dolphin turns...the way I look at it the main thing is maintaining balance throughout the run. Now the feet will be slowed down as they meet the bump so to prevent the body from toppling over the feet we need to resist and/or anticipate. The size of any required response depends on the size of the bump, etc. Skiing with an upright stance does two things: allows better resistance/absorption of the upcoming load and lifting the knees in front of the torso (where the size of the bump requires) does re-position the BoS slightly ahead.
This winter I watched and overheard an APSI facilitator instructing his group - an L3 course by the standard of the skiing - to use an upright stance for that 1st reason. (I think the facilitator was Paul Lorenz but not sure.) Although I normally wouldn't read too much into 30 seconds overheard on the hill it is the stance we see many of the younger instructors (McGlashan, Lorenz, and others) use in their resort mogul vids.
Watching this vid (using slomo) of Nelson Carmichael in powder bumps in slomo shows what I mean on the second point. In this vid he isn't sliding into the bumps, probably because the pow was helping control speed or was thick enough to make that less of an option. (Or he'd had 2 coffees for breakfast...)
Or this one of some-one less immortal from a Donna Weinbrecht camp. (vid below for before/after viewing)
Dolphin moves are another option for resisting/anticipating. (Or just spicing up the run for fun.) It all depends on what the skier is trying to achieve and what terrain they encounter.
Skier,
1. weight bias is minimal - makes sense. If bias is forward, rotation will be around some point towards the tips with the heels sliding and displaced. Looking at Chuck Martin and Carmichael vids (as they ski today) they do quite big rotations (skis coming at nearly 90 degrees to the direction of travel at times) to reduce speed but it looks centered. Certainly those quick double turns as per young JLB (and today's Martin does them too) would be very hard if the weight isn't centered.
2. Up unweighting - Also heard it referred to as retraction - retract legs to body. As distinct from unweighting by jumping/popping which has a delay while the body moves up before it begins pulling the legs up.
3. Some ski instructors (JB and others) say they ski with shin contact all the time. One described it to me as his reference point. They say they do this whether they are forward, centered or back in the turn - good use of tibialis anterior I guess. Also had CSIA ski instructors get us to play the $20 bill game in the moguls. [Pretend there's a $20 bill pinned between shin and boot tongue and every time we lose contact it blows away. How costly was the run?] However I've not heard any of the CSIA folk propose putting a lot of pressure on the front of the boot. (JB does say that for high performance carving turns.)
On dolphin turns...the way I look at it the main thing is maintaining balance throughout the run. Now the feet will be slowed down as they meet the bump so to prevent the body from toppling over the feet we need to resist and/or anticipate. The size of any required response depends on the size of the bump, etc. Skiing with an upright stance does two things: allows better resistance/absorption of the upcoming load and lifting the knees in front of the torso (where the size of the bump requires) does re-position the BoS slightly ahead.
This winter I watched and overheard an APSI facilitator instructing his group - an L3 course by the standard of the skiing - to use an upright stance for that 1st reason. (I think the facilitator was Paul Lorenz but not sure.) Although I normally wouldn't read too much into 30 seconds overheard on the hill it is the stance we see many of the younger instructors (McGlashan, Lorenz, and others) use in their resort mogul vids.
Watching this vid (using slomo) of Nelson Carmichael in powder bumps in slomo shows what I mean on the second point. In this vid he isn't sliding into the bumps, probably because the pow was helping control speed or was thick enough to make that less of an option. (Or he'd had 2 coffees for breakfast...)
Or this one of some-one less immortal from a Donna Weinbrecht camp. (vid below for before/after viewing)
Dolphin moves are another option for resisting/anticipating. (Or just spicing up the run for fun.) It all depends on what the skier is trying to achieve and what terrain they encounter.
I believe the weight bias the Canadians are talking about is inside ski vs. outside ski, not forward and backward. Am I mistaken?
I just watched this video by Stephen Fearing. Good stuff! The differences between these comp groups are pretty small when you start comparing with technique described by Geepers for example. It's all relative.
Watching again, I see what you mean. The way he uses "jumping" doesn't have to mean up in the air. It sounds like he just means a rapid weight shift.
Not inside/outside, definitely fore/aft balance.
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TS
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The weight bias being talked about is during the transition and is bias toward the outside ski. The PDF mentioned should be read in the context to turn phase. See page 7-8.
http://www.freestylecanada.ski/files/resources/Moguls Module 2017 EN.pdf