Mogul G.O.A.T.

[CalG]

Since when has this thread been about "common" skiing? Some of us would like continuing the discussion at the "elite" level, if that is not your thing, feel free to ignore posts.

IDK

Who brought in Joe and Mary?

 

[Scruffy]

IDK

Who brought in Joe and Mary?

Jesus. And if he was still here, he'd be banging moguls like Moseley.

 

[CalG]

Jesus. And if he was still here, he'd be banging moguls like Moseley.

If I have history in any sense of order. It was Joe and Mary that brought Jesus to the mountain in the first place.

 

[Scruffy]

If I have history in any sense of order. It was Joe and Mary that brought Jesus to the mountain in the first place.

You're being too literal.

 

[CalG]

You're being too literal.

;-)

 

[jack97]

..... As a minimum, this is an important technique for Joe and Mary Public-Mogul skier which prevents the skis from jetting out when they venture into 3 D terrain......

There is no possible way that Joe and Mary Public are going to absorb bumps with the degree of compression displayed in that montage.
Also, there is no lateral translation nor lateral direction change displayed in that photo series.
Joe and Mary DO NOT ski like that.

Using elite athletes to portray common skiing is less than useful IMO.

Where did I say Joe and Mary should be skiing like the mogul skier attached? Yes, the skier was using near his full absorption range however it was used to show how angular momentum applies in the bumps with respect to the axis of rotation. My point about Joe and Mary was that even recreational skier should learn about flexion and extension when it comes to 3D terrain to prevent the skis from jetting out. And I repeat using A&E in 3D terrain.

 

[jack97]

Some of us following this thread wouldn't mind hearing the advanced stuff.

Janne Lahtela and the rest of the Finnish team came on strong after Mosely won his gold in the 98 Olympics. They posted faster times and Lahtela just had better 'pop' in the air. Along with A&E, they applied pressure and micro carves on the frontside of the bumps to control their descent. By using A&E to slow the angular speed of the ski (or "keeping ahead the ski"), they can apply various levels of pressure to various locations, from the center to the front of the ski to go fast and in control. The vid below shows Lahtela making short turns in a flexed position at 4:50.



Another vid, a modern freestyle team doing a variant of this drill



In order to effectively pressure and edge the frontside while carrying some speed, you have to have A&E in muscle memory.

 

[Mike King]

Janne Lahtela and the rest of the Finnish team came on strong after Mosely won his gold in the 98 Olympics. They posted faster times and Lahtela just had better 'pop' in the air. Along with A&E, they applied pressure and micro carves on the frontside of the bumps to control their descent. By using A&E to slow the angular speed of the ski (or "keeping ahead the ski"), they can apply various levels of pressure to various locations, from the center to the front of the ski to go fast and in control. The vid below shows Lahtela making short turns in a flexed position at 4:50.



Another vid, a modern freestyle team doing a variant of this drill



In order to effectively pressure and edge the frontside while carrying some speed, you have to have A&E in muscle memory.

@jack97 i can’t thank you enough for your comments in this thread. There maybe a world of difference between the dynamic range of joe/Mary and comp mogul skiers, but one thing is true: dynamic range is a key to 3D skiing, and recreational skiers will find, in many if not most cases, that increasing their dynamic range, with appropriate DIRT, will vastly improve their skiing, whether in bumps, on the groomers, in powder, or steeps.

Mike

 

[jack97]

...... but one thing is true: dynamic range is a key to 3D skiing, and recreational skiers will find, in many if not most cases, that increasing their dynamic range, with appropriate DIRT, will vastly improve their skiing, whether in bumps, on the groomers, in powder, or steeps.

I don't mean to be beating a dead horse nor trying to revive a thread that has ended. Just wanted to point out the same dynamic range applies to WC racers as detailed in the vid below. Out of the blue I click on RM's side by side analysis of Hirscher and Ligety that mentions a topic in this thread. Near the start of the course, Hirscher was able to absorb a bump and was able to get ready for his next turn while Ligety got airborne as a result became late on his turn thus causing friction and a slower time. Interesting perspective, the analysis and breakdown starts at 2:48.

 

[skier]

I don't mean to be beating a dead horse nor trying to revive a thread that has ended. Just wanted to point out the same dynamic range applies to WC racers as detailed in the vid below. Out of the blue I click on RM's side by side analysis of Hirscher and Ligety that mentions a topic in this thread. Near the start of the course, Hirscher was able to absorb a bump and was able to get ready for his next turn while Ligety got airborne as a result became late on his turn thus causing friction and a slower time. Interesting perspective, the analysis and breakdown starts at 2:48.

I've been surprised by how many similarities there are between mogul technique and racing.

 

[Mike King]

I don't mean to be beating a dead horse nor trying to revive a thread that has ended. Just wanted to point out the same dynamic range applies to WC racers as detailed in the vid below. Out of the blue I click on RM's side by side analysis of Hirscher and Ligety that mentions a topic in this thread. Near the start of the course, Hirscher was able to absorb a bump and was able to get ready for his next turn while Ligety got airborne as a result became late on his turn thus causing friction and a slower time. Interesting perspective, the analysis and breakdown starts at 2:48.

Exactly. My coach believe that the fifth fundamental, or the ability to appropriately flex and extend to manage pressure, is the glue that unites all of the other fundamentals. It provides access to those skills, and, IMO, is the differentiator between advanced and expert skiing.

I did two days of race training this week on Aspen mountain. Guess what one of the prime factors was that we were focused on? Pulling the outside leg back under you in transition and getting the new outside leg long for the apex of the turn. Sounds an awful lot like absorption and extension in moguls, but rather that actual bumps, it is dealing with the virtual bump.

Mike

 

[geepers]

Avalement (swallowing)

http://www.ronlemaster.com/presentations/Georges-Joubert-Remembered-Vail-1-2011.pdf

Can't find a decent avalement drill vid that's not behind a paywall.

 

[James]

Hirscher was able to absorb a bump and was able to get ready for his next turn while Ligety got airborne as a result became late on his turn thus causing friction and a slower time. Interesting perspective, the analysis and breakdown starts at 2:48.

Sort of making an analysis to justify his point. Not sure it's actually true or fully relevant.

Hirscher finishes the turn earlier. Therefore he's in a better position to absorb the bump at that spot. Ligety still is on his outside foot. The air point is a little moot as Hirscher gets air also, maybe a little less, but establishes a huge steering angle while airborne or light. When contact with the snow is established he's in a position to pinch the gate. Ted chooses to take a rounder line. No reason he couldn't have pivoted airborne or while light and established a similar steering angle. He didn't choose to. Did he not choose to because he couldn't pull that off or because he thought it would be faster not too? They both get air, they just do different things in the air, so the air point I'm not sure is relevant. We don't really have enough info - exact time between the two points, speed into the turns and out of the turns, to really decide who did this sequence better.

Ted won a few years ago using his round line and stivots too. Often by over a second. He may just not have the timing, strength, confidence, whatever, to pull off what he used too. He may never get it back.

Hirscher is doing a ton of little things right at the right time, has huge confidence and the strength to pull off risky lines, and has maybe the best recovery skills ever.

 

[jack97]

Sort of making an analysis to justify his point. Not sure it's actually true or fully relevant.

Hirscher finishes the turn earlier. Therefore he's in a better position to absorb the bump at that spot. Ligety still is on his outside foot. The air point is a little moot as Hirscher gets air also, maybe a little less, but establishes a huge steering angle while airborne or light. When contact with the snow is established he's in a position to pinch the gate. Ted chooses to take a rounder line. No reason he couldn't have pivoted airborne or while light and established a similar steering angle. He didn't choose to. Did he not choose to because he couldn't pull that off or because he thought it would be faster not too? They both get air, they just do different things in the air, so the air point I'm not sure is relevant. We don't really have enough info - exact time between the two points, speed into the turns and out of the turns, to really decide who did this sequence better.

Ted won a few years ago using his round line and stivots too. Often by over a second. He may just not have the timing, strength, confidence, whatever, to pull off what he used too. He may never get it back.

Hirscher is doing a ton of little things right at the right time, has huge confidence and the strength to pull off risky lines, and has maybe the best recovery skills ever.

Some see things differently.

 

[Superbman]

Damn, tech nerds got to bring up Hirscher even in the mogul thread?

 

[skier]

Sort of making an analysis to justify his point. Not sure it's actually true or fully relevant.

Hirscher finishes the turn earlier. Therefore he's in a better position to absorb the bump at that spot. Ligety still is on his outside foot. The air point is a little moot as Hirscher gets air also, maybe a little less, but establishes a huge steering angle while airborne or light. When contact with the snow is established he's in a position to pinch the gate. Ted chooses to take a rounder line. No reason he couldn't have pivoted airborne or while light and established a similar steering angle. He didn't choose to. Did he not choose to because he couldn't pull that off or because he thought it would be faster not too? They both get air, they just do different things in the air, so the air point I'm not sure is relevant. We don't really have enough info - exact time between the two points, speed into the turns and out of the turns, to really decide who did this sequence better.

Ted won a few years ago using his round line and stivots too. Often by over a second. He may just not have the timing, strength, confidence, whatever, to pull off what he used too. He may never get it back.

Hirscher is doing a ton of little things right at the right time, has huge confidence and the strength to pull off risky lines, and has maybe the best recovery skills ever.

Racers talk about not bouncing through transition otherwise they'll be late for the turn and blow up. So, it is a real thing not letting the virtual bump or any other bump push you too high with the consequences as described.