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Mogul G.O.A.T.
- Thread starter jack97
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Yeah, thanks for bumps 101. Think I got that. In about 1965.
Ok, I'm exaggerating. I was 10 years old then and and cannot recall how I skied bumps back then. (Given my dad was still making our skis at the time, leather lace up boots and wire clip-forward bindings.... very badly I expect.)
It was more like 1975 after I resumed skiing on my own dollar.
I will add A&E is a lesson I have to relearn every season these years. Those 1st few days everything is... not supple.
The other factor that needs to be considered is speed control. A&E that works at one speed may well fall apart as the speed increases. And certainly, for less bump-able skiers, their confidence can take a beating.
Kazuki Watanabe, Salomon Demo Team Director. Won the All Japan Ski Technical Championship Competition a bunch of times (24th, 25th, 27th, 28th) back in the day, probably around the time that vid was made.
Sheeeeeeeeet, I hope we don't have to be that proficient to get this technique thing right.
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Good job.
I'm hugely envious. Be another few weeks before I'm back on skis - although I did get some time on snow in the down-under winter. Never enough!
Reilly McGlashan has some thing to say on this too. This in ply to question re Mikaël Kingsbury...
At jumps Mikael is many levels above Brassard...His mogul skiing is not at the level of Brassards... it is not Mikaels fault though, he has trained specifically for the task at hand which is to win the modern WC mogul system. All these moves that I point out in this video, modern WC mogul skiing lacks... The Zipperline technique in the first clip is really the only thing needed to win WC moguls now... Very specific with little room for wiggle... Brassards versatility is on a different level which is actually what "free" "style" is about and unfortunately kids training for mogul competitions these days pretty much stay in man made mogul courses...
I kind of get the impression he's not too much of a fan of modern WC mogul skiing.
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TS
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IMO, you have that backwards, A&E is for speed control. Not the other way around.
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TS
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That was the point. Like RM, I always felt JLB showed more versatility when it comes to the bumps, he could do so many things well. This was around the time when the Canadian team was using more front pressure and edging to control their descent (the Fins took it to another level later on). The status quo of that time was mainly using deflection turns which the French team was so proficient in. I haven't seen many vids of Grospiron (first Olympic medalist from France) skiing non uniform bumps except for the one below. Here he using deflection turns, hardly putting his tips down to engage the edge. Although it shows elite level athleticism, it's one dimensional compared to JLB.
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For myself, the "early season muscle barkings" come from the groin and hip flexors.
Pulling 'em in and Sucking up the bumps I suppose.
Today we had nothing but solid ice bumps. What you would expect after formation at 40 degrees that gave in to 12 degree temps overnight.
But a 1/2 inch of fresh had drifted down from the darkness above.
Rock hard, but muffled to a hush. Rather strange..... enjoyed,..... in a peculiar way.
The bumps I skied Friday on at Short Spoke (elev 7.9k>8.65k facing due north) at KW were good for this old bump skier's first day of the season because the top layer from the previous week's storms was the coldest of that series with dry cold snow down to Pine Grove at 2.5k on SR88 but much more depth and blowing around up high. So the snow was most excellent dry skier packed powder that was so soft that even on large bumps where I tend approach more mechanically slower, I was able to just relax gravity projecting down to the mounds below since they were so soft.
Off The Reut, take Wagon Trail 8.65k down to 8.45k vector off at the Conestoga crossover track to hug the trees skiers right where the groomer allows a narrow ungroomed bump or two width full right that follows a fall line but is at an angle of the run direction so is short though much fun against the grain. Later in the winter that is the top of the roped off ski racing course. Because of the lower gradient, the start at 8.65k tends to form very nicely formed small moguls that are excellent to get a rhythm with balance moving through as the pitch then steepens. At some point one can traverse right for the next fall line or do a right down and over right and down and over repeating where one can flow right to traverse across fall lines nicely to a subtle terrain nose. At that point one has passed The Reut lift tower 11 and can now keep that fall line down past tower 10 to elevation 8000 at tower 7. That face is not however regular but rather has a shallow gully that curves right then left at the steepest. The lowest low gradient section has a traverse back left zone at the bottom of the steepest pitch and then a bunch of weird stuff with lots of ski tracks I just aimed for all the soft bump piles that welcomed my bouncy body. In places I was able to motor through nicely sized rollers confidently in control like standing up while peddling a dirt bike. What a great feeling bouncing down on the Twisters. 14 runs over 4 hours 14k vertical. On 3 of my runs ran the full 450 feet that was bumps non-stop while most of the time stopped 1 or 2 times because it can be strenuous even when efficient and I tend to bail sooner than later especially on the first day skiing this year. Oh and of course the whole 450 feet of vertical is right below the lift in view so one is in the public arena.
Off The Reut, take Wagon Trail 8.65k down to 8.45k vector off at the Conestoga crossover track to hug the trees skiers right where the groomer allows a narrow ungroomed bump or two width full right that follows a fall line but is at an angle of the run direction so is short though much fun against the grain. Later in the winter that is the top of the roped off ski racing course. Because of the lower gradient, the start at 8.65k tends to form very nicely formed small moguls that are excellent to get a rhythm with balance moving through as the pitch then steepens. At some point one can traverse right for the next fall line or do a right down and over right and down and over repeating where one can flow right to traverse across fall lines nicely to a subtle terrain nose. At that point one has passed The Reut lift tower 11 and can now keep that fall line down past tower 10 to elevation 8000 at tower 7. That face is not however regular but rather has a shallow gully that curves right then left at the steepest. The lowest low gradient section has a traverse back left zone at the bottom of the steepest pitch and then a bunch of weird stuff with lots of ski tracks I just aimed for all the soft bump piles that welcomed my bouncy body. In places I was able to motor through nicely sized rollers confidently in control like standing up while peddling a dirt bike. What a great feeling bouncing down on the Twisters. 14 runs over 4 hours 14k vertical. On 3 of my runs ran the full 450 feet that was bumps non-stop while most of the time stopped 1 or 2 times because it can be strenuous even when efficient and I tend to bail sooner than later especially on the first day skiing this year. Oh and of course the whole 450 feet of vertical is right below the lift in view so one is in the public arena.
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Not really. Those training vids for comp zipperline always have people starting slow through gentle slope and/or lots of sliding.
It may be the case for comp mogul skiers in their prime. As per the quote from Chuck Martin in the other mogul thread that 50% of the speed control comes from absorption.
Although I note that these days both Chuck and Nelson Carmichael seem to get a great deal of speed control by getting their skis sideways to the line of travel. That vid I posted above of NC in pow bumps was the only modern vid I found of him skiing a line without much sliding - in that case the pow drag probably doing a great deal of the slowing. Even the top mogul skiers use drag to slow their approach to the jumps.
I would say that whatever the style used, the mass of bump skiers get off the speed bus at the station that suits their situation - by skiing a less steep slope and/or sliding and/or spending less time in the fall line.
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TS
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IMO, you're mixing up using A&E for speed control versus in general, speed outcome.
Yeah, thanks for bumps 101. Think I got that. In about 1965.
The other factor that needs to be considered is speed control. A&E that works at one speed may well fall apart as the speed increases. And certainly, for less bump-able skiers, their confidence can take a beating.
The fastest I've gone in the fall line in moguls is 20 mph. At that speed, A&E still works and gives a smooth ride. I find the ride even smoother at faster speeds. Certainly for any speed YOU will ever ski in your life in the moguls, the faster you ski, the more your speed control can come from A&E. If the surface is slow such as slushy or powder, you can ski a straight line keeping your speed below 20 mph just with A&E, i.e 100% speed control from A&E. There are lots of videos of people skiing in a straight line in these conditions to prove it. At about 6 mph, very little of your speed control will come from A&E which is why many people are skeptical. They just don't ski fast enough to experience it. For any "less bump-able skiers", they will never ski fast enough for A&E to "fall apart". Does A&E fall apart for world cup skiers? I've never heard it reported. They all still talk about it as if it's one of the most important aspects of comp mogul skiing. I suppose for academic interest, there could be a speed where they couldn't push the skis down fast enough, but this has no bearing on recreational skiing. So, no, it's not another factor that needs to be considered. I guess you've had your bumps 101 course, but opted out of bumps 102
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I must be missing your point. If I want to keep my car under the speed limit going down a hill I use some speed reduction mechanism (downshift, brakes) to meet my desired speed outcome.
The fastest I've gone in the fall line in moguls is 20 mph. At that speed, A&E still works and gives a smooth ride. I find the ride even smoother at faster speeds. Certainly for any speed YOU will ever ski in your life in the moguls, the faster you ski, the more your speed control can come from A&E. If the surface is slow such as slushy or powder, you can ski a straight line keeping your speed below 20 mph just with A&E, i.e 100% speed control from A&E. There are lots of videos of people skiing in a straight line in these conditions to prove it. At about 6 mph, very little of your speed control will come from A&E which is why many people are skeptical. They just don't ski fast enough to experience it. For any "less bump-able skiers", they will never ski fast enough for A&E to "fall apart". Does A&E fall apart for world cup skiers? I've never heard it reported. They all still talk about it as if it's one of the most important aspects of comp mogul skiing. I suppose for academic interest, there could be a speed where they couldn't push the skis down fast enough, but this has no bearing on recreational skiing. So, no, it's not another factor that needs to be considered. I guess you've had your bumps 101 course, but opted out of bumps 102
Your point on speed confirms my thinking. Absorption has limitations as a mechanism for controlling speed. Must be travelling relatively quickly and the skier must be fairly athletic. Even elite athletes need to augment it in certain circumstances. Watch these two runs of Matt Graeme. In his win at Calgary he uses visibly more ski across the fall line compared to his second place at PyeongChang. Same for Britt Cox at Calgary.
“Calgary lands itself on the tougher side as far as courses go,” said K.C. Oakley (Piedmont, CA), who will be competing on the Calgary course for the fifth time in her career this weekend. “It’s one of the steeper courses on tour - the slope drops off after the top air. For this reason, it can be tough and variable, and is a ski-dominant course.”
https://usskiandsnowboard.org/news/moguls-world-cup-continues-calgary
https://usskiandsnowboard.org/news/moguls-world-cup-continues-calgary
As a technique for Joe and Mary Public-Mogul skier not convinced it has a huge amount of utility.
Interestingly Nelson Carmichael makes no mention of absorption for speed control in any of his modern Steamboat vids that I could find - like this playlist:
(Can't help but noticing that the Nelson of 2010 - i.e. nearly 10 years ago - skis much more aggressively than the Nelson of 2015 and later.)
Glad to see you hanging in there. I thought you'd thrown in the towel.
I wouldn't get too hung up on exactly how much speed control you get from A&E. Sure, it's not going to bring you to a stand still, typically, but another way to look at it is if you don't do A&E, one or two bumps and you're launched in the air, so A&E allows skiing faster. My main point bringing it up, is that it's how to ski with low impact in the bumps. No matter which way you ski, if you feel impact in the bumps, it's typically from bad A&E technique.
Another way to look at A&E is that it's a vertical turn. All the qualities of a turn are there, just in a different plane. For example, on a steep slope you'll jump turn and ski across the hill instead of the fall line. Likewise with bumps you'll ski the flatter or uphill sections with more pressure than the steep sections, unless you're skidding. Short radius turns don't let you go super slow unless you skid. There's not much difference between carved short radius turns and A&E, other than your dislike for very direct skiing. Speed control, impact, and athletic ability are all very similar.
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TS
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That's because you do not see A&E as a way to control speed. The act of flexion and extension changes the skier's center of mass (COM) location , by timing this at the appropriate places in the bumps, the angular velocity of the skis can be reduce. The physics behind this is by placing the COM away from the axis of rotation, the angular speed reduces. An analogy to this is the ice skater rotated at a spot on the ice, by placing the hand or legs closer or away, the speed of the spin changes. The vid below describes this scenario.
Now back to the bumps, the pic below shows the curvature where the skis will have angular velocity. The axis of rotation for the bump skier at the absorption is shown at location A and at the extension its location B. Here the skier is using A&E and places his COM away from the axis of rotation thus reducing his angular velocity. As a minimum, this is an important technique for Joe and Mary Public-Mogul skier which prevents the skis from jetting out when they venture into 3 D terrain. There's other advance stuff with A&E I can talk about but it will be lost on you.
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Thanks for your post on A&E and Angular Momentum. Some of us following this thread wouldn't mind hearing the advanced stuff.
There is no possible way that Joe and Mary Public are going to absorb bumps with the degree of compression displayed in that montage.
Also, there is no lateral translation nor lateral direction change displayed in that photo series.
Joe and Mary DO NOT ski like that.
Using elite athletes to portray common skiing is less than useful IMO.
Unfortunately, if you want to ski bumps, you need to be athletic, in good shape and have good technique.
No. Anyone can ski bumps.
There is a method, a technique, and a path for everyone.
Joe and Mary are different than your model , but they can still ski bumps!
Since when has this thread been about "common" skiing? Some of us would like continuing the discussion at the "elite" level, if that is not your thing, feel free to ignore posts.