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geepers

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JLB doing some milder bumps in 2013 Steamboat. Black helmet.


Anyone know anything more recent?
 

SSSdave

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Thanks for that interview clip Jack. He did mention in this later post champion era enjoying rec moguls with good ski to snow contact. Never heard the ear quiet sound tip before, interesting.

However the OP clip was mostly the competition mogul style that demands speed for the sake of scoring. So most of his turns show skis with air off the top of bumps. I've never develop skills to ski lines like that as forces are too high. However any bump skier with that level of lower leg skills can also shift into lower speed gears and keeps edges in good snow contact throughout turns.
 
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jack97

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However the OP clip was mostly the competition mogul style that demands speed for the sake of scoring. So most of his turns show skis with air off the top of bumps. I've never develop skills to ski lines like that as forces are too high.

JLB competed in the era where you ski higher on the side of the bump, had some air off the top and would control the skis to contour the backside of the bumps.

He was the second Olympic gold medalist in the freestyle mogul event. Once this became an Olympic event, the bumps became "man made". Like those before him, he developed and hone his skills on random skier made bumps. They would throw in double turns and develop various turns shapes to follow the flow of the bump.


edit, added his gold winning run to show how the field skied the bumps and no inverts in the air.
 
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Among the mogul crowd, JLB is well known..... some excellent points are made in the vid below.


I always thought Reilly McGlashan was the best mogul skier among his peers. As this video shows, it may be because he doesn't carry around a huge blind spot towards comp mogul skiing ….
 

geepers

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I always thought Reilly McGlashan was the best mogul skier among his peers. As this video shows, it may be because he doesn't carry around a huge blind spot towards comp mogul skiing ….

Might be worth reading MacGlashin's blog article on this. Extracts:
...but I never consistently watch modern WC mogul skiing. When I was a kid I used to love watching the mogul skiing on TV and actually it is still the type of skiing I prefer watching to this day, but, in my opinion, modern WC mogul skiing has become so specialized that I feel it has developed into a sport of no relevance to what I look for in actual real world mogul skiing.

I have skied many WC courses, and also freeline mogul fields and I know first hand that there is a huge difference between variations and timing of movements. The perfectly 3.5 meter spaced moguls in a WC course warrants learning a specific set of movements to be repeated consistently without fail for the duration of the 22 second course. Deviations of the timing of these movements will result in less points, less speed and mistakes. Obviously the faster you can repeat these movements the better. It would be as if a slalom course was set on a perfectly straight falling run with no rollers and consistent spacing and offset, no delays, no hairpins, no variations of terrain features. It would be very boring to watch, it would also require less skills from the slalom skiers and time differences would be much smaller. Once you get the timing of the movements down it would be autopilot. I feel this has happened to WC mogul skiing, they have taken the “freestyle” out of freeestyle.
He also says...
Before the keyboard warriors arrive I want to also state that I highly respect the WC mogul skiers that are competing right now. Mikael Kingsbury and the rest of the top 10 are extremely talented athletes and no doubt amazing skiers.
 

wutangclan

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Amen. This is exactly why I'm so skeptical of advice given by comp mogul racers, e.g. Jonny Mosely.

Ladies and gentlemen of the court, I present to you Exhibit A:


I find his tips to be totally inappropriate for recreational skiers on real-world bumps (which appears to be the audience for this video). Jumping from the old downhill ski onto a sideways skid on the new one??? Boom Boom??? "As soon as you make a slow turn, you're dead"??? Recipe for disaster on anything but a manicured comp course ... not to mention very tiring for the mere humans amongst us.

JLB's tips are much more applicable to real-world skiing. "Skiing by sound, if you're banging the bumps, it's because you don't have the right techniques, eat poutine, tabarnac!" ... (ok I added that last bit) ... unconventional way to explain it but much more practical and plausible.
 
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jack97

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Amen. This is exactly why I'm so skeptical of advice given by comp mogul racers, e.g. Jonny Mosely.

Ladies and gentlemen of the court, I present to you Exhibit A:


I find his tips to be totally inappropriate for recreational skiers on real-world bumps (which appears to be the audience for this video). Jumping from the old downhill ski onto a sideways skid on the new one??? Boom Boom??? "As soon as you make a slow turn, you're dead"??? Recipe for disaster on anything but a manicured comp course ... not to mention very tiring for the mere humans amongst us.

Under cross examination..... the court does not know that the said Mosely video was addressed to a specific group of recreational skiers. In additional, the said "Boom Boom" may be take be taken out of context. Some recreational skiers are more advance than others when it comes to said video, for a specific group of recreational skiers it could be entirely appropriate.
 

Josh Matta

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Amen. This is exactly why I'm so skeptical of advice given by comp mogul racers, e.g. Jonny Mosely.

Ladies and gentlemen of the court, I present to you Exhibit A:


I find his tips to be totally inappropriate for recreational skiers on real-world bumps (which appears to be the audience for this video). Jumping from the old downhill ski onto a sideways skid on the new one??? Boom Boom??? "As soon as you make a slow turn, you're dead"??? Recipe for disaster on anything but a manicured comp course ... not to mention very tiring for the mere humans amongst us.

JLB's tips are much more applicable to real-world skiing. "Skiing by sound, if you're banging the bumps, it's because you don't have the right techniques, eat poutine, tabarnac!" ... (ok I added that last bit) ... unconventional way to explain it but much more practical and plausible.

Whats funny about mosley, is he freeskis a much more round line than is being shown by the JLB "round line". Mosley is a crazy good skier all mountain skier, and trust his guide to follow them literally on the back of your skis, well at least until he can not see ahead of him anymore.
I really wish I had a gopro going that day it was incredible. He also skis with very little impact and would beat 95 percent of rec skier out there in a gated GS race.

I still find comp mogul skiing to be blah, my simple reason is that the turns are based on predetermined criteria that are not objectively good skiing, but subjectively what someones want to call good skiing. If they change the sport to be about an objective like outright speed and stopped grading the turn on their style then I would be supportive of the disciple. Its not to say that the skiers are not crazy good at, and far more athletic than any of us, or in some case outside of the gates, but the skiing JLB is showing even in the freeskiing videos is extremely bottom heavy with no real top of the turn. In not to say he is slow, or impact, or bad, its just to say that I think people like Reilly are better at skiing bumps, because objectively top of the turn engagement can be more thing than just skiing the bottom of the turn.
 

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Whats funny about mosley, is he freeskis a much more round line than is being shown by the JLB "round line". Mosley is a crazy good skier all mountain skier, and trust his guide to follow them literally on the back of your skis, well at least until he can not see ahead of him anymore.
I really wish I had a gopro going that day it was incredible. He also skis with very little impact and would beat 95 percent of rec skier out there in a gated GS race.

I still find comp mogul skiing to be blah, my simple reason is that the turns are based on predetermined criteria that are not objectively good skiing, but subjectively what someones want to call good skiing. If they change the sport to be about an objective like outright speed and stopped grading the turn on their style then I would be supportive of the disciple. Its not to say that the skiers are not crazy good at, and far more athletic than any of us, or in some case outside of the gates, but the skiing JLB is showing even in the freeskiing videos is extremely bottom heavy with no real top of the turn. In not to say he is slow, or impact, or bad, its just to say that I think people like Reilly are better at skiing bumps, because objectively top of the turn engagement can be more thing than just skiing the bottom of the turn.

Moguls form from repeated turns in the same place. A much bigger cut in the snow happens at the bottom of the turn, because that's where gravity and centrifugal forces align. Therefore, there's a change in slope at the top of the turn which causes the ground to drop away from the tip of the ski for the next skier coming through. When the ground is dropping away from the tip, it's impossible to engage the tip, but this also ends up being a moment where it's super easy to turn the skis since they can swivel on the ridge. Since there's now even less movement of the snow from not engaging the tip at the top of the turn, the change in slope becomes even greater reinforcing the pattern for the next skier. Following the pattern of turns in well formed moguls requires that the top of the turn be rotary, because the ground drops away from the tip. And you can see from these still shots of Reilly in well formed bumps that his tips aren't engaged at the top of the turn just like all other great mogul skiers in well formed bumps.

Reilly top of turn A.JPG


Conservatively, here is when his tips start to engage after a good bit of rotation, i.e after the top of the turn is over.
Reilly top of turn B.JPG



It also appears to me that Reilly is engaging his edges even later in the turn than most modern day bumpers. He's kind of skiing a throw back to old school bumpers that didn't pull their feet back as much as they do today which leads to later tip engagement and less speed control.


In a slalom race, when the gates are tight, you'll see racers doing rotary at the top of the turn as well. This is because racers are completely unconcerned with the subjective quality of a turn. The only objective qualities are making the gates and time. Similarly in moguls there's more fun to be had than making carved turns. Carved turns are super fun on groomed slopes where the ski edge can be engaged for the entire turn. In moguls, there's fun that has nothing to do with carving such as the feeling of flying and rapid fire turns responding to bumps coming at you. I think this is the disconnect between comp folks and many other skiers. Many skiers like you subjectively define good skiing according to an assessment of turn quality based on edge engagement derived from carving. Whereas many bump skiers are enjoying other objective aspects that are more fun for them in the bumps such as turn frequency, balance, and 3D range of motion. I think once anyone lets go of the limiting requirement that their turns must be carved to be good skiing, they can open themselves to different types of experiences more suited for 3D terrain that are super fun, and for some of us more fun than carving.
 

SSSdave

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Thanks MickM for your kenisiology video on body mogul alignments. There is much there at least initially over my head so will need to take a look at it more to see how it reflects my own movements. The fact a Squaw Valley mogul coach endorses it is good enough for me. I do already see some things noted I can relate to in my own skiing.

As a rec mogul skier that has never been coached or done video analysis but read a lot, interested in finding the least strenuous, smooth, efficient, moderate speed fall line fun mode skiing moguls, I've learned what works best for myself mainly by trial and error while being tuned into what feels right. Accordingly really have never understood what I am doing in depth nor can teach others though I do tend to be rather analytical about it at a modest level. I have a sloppy irregular loose though quiet upper body form that have always thought an actual mogul ski instructor would shake their head looking at haha.

As for Moseley's video, that was just a short terse tip and he would have far more to say with a higher skilled audience. The audience is obviously a bunch of ordinary skiing fans at some resort where he is making an advertised public appearance. His tip to immediately get onto the downhill ski as quickly as possible by jumping with one's whole upper body onto the top of the downhill ski is indeed part of what one does. By doing so at the optimal point compressed atop a bump, one can set that edge quickly on the other side in order to reduce acceleration dropping down the steeper downhill side of a bump. And as MickM related, a key is to keep the center of momentum following a reasonably straight sloping path down the fall line versus the up and down form of the terrain. To do so one must extend the lower body down after a bump and not allow the jumping motion to cause the upper body mass to rise out of the sloping path.

When I make continuous short dynamic turns, whether in moguls or on groomed, my mental state is one of like jumping up and down on a moving trampoline with the flex of one's skis the trampoline, much like a little kid does on a board spread between a couple of cinder blocks. That is a reason I prefer a balanced skis so I can bounce from its center without being pitched back or forward. But since the trampoline is moving down slope due to gravity, to do so while a slope is all irregular, one needs to both align the stack of body parts MickM was relating, perpendicular to the slope that is actually a falling position if static. My falling position is especially controlled by subtle movements at highest parts of my upper body, head, hands, upper chest at shoulders. What is going on in the middle of my body at the waist and lower back is what I've never understood well and rather just seek a relaxed upper body feel. And that is where I often get into trouble because once into a rhythm after going long distances down a field, may start day dreaming while having little focus or clue of what is going on below haha and suddenly make a single forced awkward turn then bail to a stop.
 
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jmeb

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I would watch bump tips with someone like Marcus Caston all day. And while I appreciate the form, fluidity, and precision of someone like Reilly or the JLB, I find the skiing generally uninspiring as it does not coincide with bumps I ever see nowadays or a style which I want to emulate.
 

Rod9301

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Amen. This is exactly why I'm so skeptical of advice given by comp mogul racers, e.g. Jonny Mosely.

Ladies and gentlemen of the court, I present to you Exhibit A:


I find his tips to be totally inappropriate for recreational skiers on real-world bumps (which appears to be the audience for this video). Jumping from the old downhill ski onto a sideways skid on the new one??? Boom Boom??? "As soon as you make a slow turn, you're dead"??? Recipe for disaster on anything but a manicured comp course ... not to mention very tiring for the mere humans amongst us.

JLB's tips are much more applicable to real-world skiing. "Skiing by sound, if you're banging the bumps, it's because you don't have the right techniques, eat poutine, tabarnac!" ... (ok I added that last bit) ... unconventional way to explain it but much more practical and plausible.
The thing is that mogul skiing is hard and totally out of reach of intermediate skiers.

So the tips here giving are designed to take someone out of the intermediate rut.

And if the listener is not athletic and strong, it will not happen.
 

Mike King

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I find the skiing generally uninspiring as it does not coincide with bumps I ever see nowadays or a style which I want to emulate.

What about the bumps that Reilly skis do you not find in bump terrain at virtually any destination resort? I'm not understanding your criticism so might you clarify?
 

tball

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I would watch bump tips with someone like Marcus Caston all day. And while I appreciate the form, fluidity, and precision of someone like Reilly or the JLB, I find the skiing generally uninspiring as it does not coincide with bumps I ever see nowadays or a style which I want to emulate.

With all due respect to Marcus Caston, he's the last guy in this video I'd want to take bump tips from or emulate.


Granted, he is skiing with a bunch of Olympic and US Ski Team bump skiers. Huge props to him for doing so! That video definitely proves comp bump skiers can rip outside the course and should end that discussion forever, IMO.
 

jmeb

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What about the bumps that Reilly skis do you not find in bump terrain at virtually any destination resort? I'm not understanding your criticism so might you clarify?

Maybe I just don't ski "destination" resorts that much. But the bumps to my eyes are far more uniform, far less elongated than the bumps I typically encounter.

With all due respect to Marcus Caston, he's the last guy in this video I'd want to take bump tips from or emulate.


Granted, he is skiing with a bunch of Olympic and US Ski Team bump skiers. Huge props to him for doing so! That video definitely proves comp bump skiers can rip outside the course and should end that discussion forever, IMO.
I personally have no interest in just skiing fast zipper line bumps as in most bump technique videos. Basically, I'd be more interested in watching (and learning from) videos that focus a freestyle, creative approach to bumps. Which is why I like that video.

I personally find Caston's skiing more fun to watch than most others in that video (although the crew segment where they aren't zippering is fun). I wholeheartedly admit it might not be as efficient, as clean, as smooth, as objectively good, as the other skiers in that vid. I'd rather be able to emulate him, because it's a style I like. And if freeskiing is about anything to me, it's about expressing yourself on the mountain.

Or put another way -- maybe I don't care at all about bump skiing technique. I care about inspiring skiing that may take place on bumps.
 
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