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Do you tip your ankle(s) inside your boots?

geepers

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By restraining the movement of your knee and forbidding the pointing of the forefoot, you are stopping the tilt at the subtalar joint. Bones inside your foot shift around, but that subtalar joint is not being used. If you succeed actually everting or inverting the foot, and if the fore foot is constrained from moving, the tibia will rotate and the knee will move with it.

This knee/tibia movement that accompanies tilting the foot at the subtalar joint is in the direction we want our lower legs to tilt when edging a ski. So starting with tipping the foot at the subtalar joint, down inside the boot, helps tilt the lower leg. It's a byproduct of the ankle action, and a good thing for skiers to do.
View attachment 105247
Knee Pointing - not a technique issue - Page 2

Yes. Those diagrams have been posted a number of times.

So the question: in closed chain is there really any difference initiating the tipping from the foot or from elsewhere?

According to the experiment above I (at least) can't tip my foot without the knee needing to move. There's no free play. And I'm sure I can't rotate the knee inside without the foot tipping. It all works exactly as the diagrams.

So why is there a difference in where the tipping of the foot is initiated?

I'm neutral on this - just have yet to hear a good reason that fits with my own on-snow experience.

Yes. When you 'tip' the foot/feet in the boot, it ISN'T slopping around in a loose boot, it's applying pressure in the boot through small movements in the subtalar joint. This pressure (again, not big, sloppy macro movements) tips the boot, which tips the ski. Can you put a ski on edge with bigger movements of the knee, hip, or even inclining the shoulders? Sure. But those big movements, when they originate higher up the chain, are gross movements that are very easy to compromise lateral balance. Good skiing starts from the feet. Ask any technically strong, accurate skier, and they'll confirm this. I can't think of any exceptions.

Is this guy an exception? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what he's saying, especially the bit at 4:30.

 

François Pugh

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Fact: ski will not tip unless the boot tips.
Fact: boot will not tip unless the top of the boot moves laterally.
Given the above facts, you can "start" or intend and control the move however you like, but those "gross" movements at the boot top are going to be present in a tight fitting boot of typical height. Ankle high boots provide more fine control movements at the cost of less force.
 
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LiquidFeet

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^^ Yes. Tipping the foot at the ankle inside the boot is a "start" movement. Small ROM primes the pump. Moving the cuff is required to get any functional edge angle. But since tipping the foot at the ankle rolls the knee to the side (see diagrams above somewhere), it starts the lower leg's tipping.

This small ROM and the invisibility of ankle-tipping's role in rolling the knee is why so many people don't bother with the ankles. The question becomes, how much of an advantage does tipping the ankles give to those who do?

I'll give one reason to ankle-tip from my experience. There are more, but I'll start with one reason here. I am not implying this should work for everyone.

To initiate an arc-to-arc carve, I head straight downhill and tip both feet at the ankles leftie-rightie. By turn #3 I've gotten the radius I want for the run. Talking about an empty blue groomer here. Pure bliss follows.

Yes, there are other ways of initiating a carved run, but this is the most certain initiation move of them all - for me. It assures that I don't flub up the platform angle, which, once flubbed, nixes the arc-to-arc business.
 
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markojp

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Yes. Those diagrams have been posted a number of times.

So the question: in closed chain is there really any difference initiating the tipping from the foot or from elsewhere?

According to the experiment above I (at least) can't tip my foot without the knee needing to move. There's no free play. And I'm sure I can't rotate the knee inside without the foot tipping. It all works exactly as the diagrams.

So why is there a difference in where the tipping of the foot is initiated?

I'm neutral on this - just have yet to hear a good reason that fits with my own on-snow experience.



Is this guy an exception? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what he's saying, especially the bit at 4:30.


Takao is a phenomenal athlete. He can compensate and do things on skis that most of us mere mortals just can't. I always enjoy his take on skiing, but he absolutely skis very differently than most technical skiers we look at here. Japan has a unique tech skiing culture that's worth following and experimenting with, but DO have a look at his skiing in the Rookies Academy videos vs. JF's (or any of the WC skiers freeskiing videos on youtube of late). Takao's pelvis in anything other than short radius turns does much more following. Look at comparative edge angles with JF in the same terrain and turn radius. Now, are edge angles for the sake of angles the be all end all? No. We forget WC'ers use only what is necessary, no more, no less. Now don't take this wrong because I like how Takao forces me to reconsider my assumptions which is a very valuable lesson in and of itself! But as good as he is, I think the Japanese tech ski culture is based on almost a martial arts forms/kata more than race based snow ski outcomes. I'm also interested in how teaching outside of Japan and in a non-native language will affect his own ideas and how that will all find it's way back into Japan and even his native language. The above, a loaded statement I know, but it's said with great respect and admiration for his skills. He can ski however he wants because he's such a gifted athlete. I only wish the wider ski world knew how damn good many of the women Japanese tech skiers are.
 
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markojp

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Fact: ski will not tip unless the boot tips.
Fact: boot will not tip unless the top of the boot moves laterally.
Given the above facts, you can "start" or intend and control the move however you like, but those "gross" movements at the boot top are going to be present in a tight fitting boot of typical height. Ankle high boots provide more fine control movements at the cost of less force.

When all is firing, the entire chain works in sync from the bottom of the feet to the top of the head. The focus on starting with attention to footwork (tipping, placement, DIRT) is because many good skiers could be MUCH BETTER skiers if they understood and could feel, and better utilize their feet under them. Bringing attention to as close to the surface of the show as a skiing human body gets is a radical notion for many life long pretty dary good skiers, so it's not surprising there's resistance to the idea. When we focus on the feet and ankles, we're just drawing attention to an oft neglected and critical part of the chain. Next on the list once the feet are sorted and underneath come work through the core... IMHO of course. My question is, why do you need to make 'force', or am I not understanding your last sentence?
 

geepers

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To initiate an arc-to-arc carve, I head straight downhill and tip both feet at the ankles leftie-rightie. By turn #3 I've gotten the radius I want for the run. Talking about an empty blue groomer here. Pure bliss follows.


Experimented quite a bit with the initiation of tipping (foot or knee) last Canada season. I'm wondering if it is simply a case of using a different mental trigger for tipping the feet. The important thing being the feet tip. Either way effect is as you describe.

Takao is a phenomenal athlete. He can compensate and do things on skis that most of us mere mortals just can't. I always enjoy his take on skiing, but he absolutely skis very differently than most technical skiers we look at here. Japan has a unique tech skiing culture that's worth following and experimenting with, but DO have a look at his skiing in the Rookies Academy videos vs. JF's (or any of the WC skiers freeskiing videos on youtube of late). Takao's pelvis in anything other than short radius turns does much more following. Look at comparative edge angles with JF in the same terrain and turn radius. Now, are edge angles for the sake of angles the be all end all? No. We forget WC'ers use only what is necessary, no more, no less. Now don't take this wrong because I like how Takao forces me to reconsider my assumptions which is a very valuable lesson in and of itself! But as good as he is, I think the Japanese tech ski culture is based on almost a martial arts forms/kata more than race based snow ski outcomes. I'm also interested in how teaching outside of Japan and in a non-native language will affect his own ideas and how that will all find it's way back into Japan and even his native language. The above, a loaded statement I know, but it's said with great respect and admiration for his skills. He can ski however he wants because he's such a gifted athlete. I only wish the wider ski world knew how damn good many of the women Japanese tech skiers are.

Lorenz says in one of his vids the Japanese technique is not well understood and has much to do with the soft snow and speed they ski in those Tech Comps. Out of my pay grade to really understand however I do admire the smooth skiing style.

I've come across more examples of this use of the hips. Tom Gellie discusses use of hip rotation in certain situations in his vids and specifically refs the Japanese technique. Also saw one instructor improve another instructor's skiing with a hip move tactic in an exam practice I attended as a mock student - the interesting thing was a comment by the guy overseeing the training who is a Grand Jedi Master of the CSIA "Not yet sure I buy into the hip thing but we have to admit it is getting results and there's no sign of it leading to upper body rotation."

I filed all that away under "things to be explored in the distant future".

Bringing attention to as close to the surface of the show as a skiing human body gets is a radical notion for many life long pretty dary good skiers, so it's not surprising there's resistance to the idea.

Not resisting - see my reply to liquidfeet above.

Golf analogy: does it matter what a player's mental trigger is for starting the downswing? Does it have to be in the hands because those are the things holding to the club?
 

Loki1

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So I think Geepers is on the right path with the mental focus here. The reality(science), is that the movement comes from the femur moving in the hip socket. You can believe it or not but that is the truth of it. Let’s explore the opposing opinion and talk about why the distinction is important.
First, I teach essentially the same thing as most people are teaching here. Skiing starts from the foot up. I speak a lot about feeling the bottom of the foot, moving pressure from the aft to the fore in a diagonal direction, tipping the foot first. All of these things are to promote more body awareness and feeling. Also, I want the focus to be at the ski level. I want the athlete/student focused on the outcome not the process. All of these things point to a feet/ski centered approach. That is where most people feel these movements so it’s ok to focus on that. This could lead into a internal versus external cues discussion at this point, because that is what we are really talking about here. How to get the athlete/student to focus on something that produces a desired result. At the end of the day you need to use what works best for the individual student, and many have found a foot/ankle approach produces the desired results.
Why is it important then to understand that the movement doesn’t come from the place most people are successful focusing on or feeling it. The reason it it changes the cause and effect relationships and gives you a better insight into what may be going on with a skier. If the movements come from the pelvis, then the pelvis alignment becomes much more crucial. The pelvis has to be aligned to allow the desired tipping and rotational movements to occur. If it is rotated into the turn one cannot release before realigning the pelvis. Also range of motion for abduction will be constrained as well as the ability to balance on the outside ski. If rotated out the turn too far, one will become braced, pressure will move to the heel further restricting the ability to release and manage pressure.
Finally , many have spoken of the kinetic chain. I think there is a bit of misunderstanding with the process of the chain. It is my understanding that the chain refers to the joints working together of simultaneously to achieve a certain movement rather than a progression of movermernts started at one end of the chain or the other. One may say this disproves everything I said above, however I think it actually makes my point. The mental focus is key to the athlete/student to achieve the outcome. The ability to see where the movements are coming from is key to the coach/instructor. Working together much like the kinetic chain is the important part to achieve the outcomes desired.
I think it is definitely a good thing to focus on the foot/ankle however I also think we need to understand, regardless of our opinions, what is really going on. That will make us better teachers/coaches for our students/athletes.
 

markojp

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Experimented quite a bit with the initiation of tipping (foot or knee) last Canada season. I'm wondering if it is simply a case of using a different mental trigger for tipping the feet. The important thing being the feet tip. Either way effect is as you describe.



Lorenz says in one of his vids the Japanese technique is not well understood and has much to do with the soft snow and speed they ski in those Tech Comps. Out of my pay grade to really understand however I do admire the smooth skiing style.

I've come across more examples of this use of the hips. Tom Gellie discusses use of hip rotation in certain situations in his vids and specifically refs the Japanese technique. Also saw one instructor improve another instructor's skiing with a hip move tactic in an exam practice I attended as a mock student - the interesting thing was a comment by the guy overseeing the training who is a Grand Jedi Master of the CSIA "Not yet sure I buy into the hip thing but we have to admit it is getting results and there's no sign of it leading to upper body rotation."

I filed all that away under "things to be explored in the distant future".



Not resisting - see my reply to liquidfeet above.

Golf analogy: does it matter what a player's mental trigger is for starting the downswing? Does it have to be in the hands because those are the things holding to the club?

Didn't say you were resisting. That was a general statement, and common with people we train.

Hips, pelvis, core... this is what gets attention after people are more aware of their feet. From the feet up, not ONLY the feet, is where I'm coming from. Too often tech discussions turn binary which is why I don't often post in them. :)
 

oldschoolskier

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No I don’t tip my ankles inside the boots, they should be satisfied with the monies spend on them to be comfortable, supported and correctly aligned in the boot. Expecting a tip is just outrageous.

:ogbiggrin: :duck:
 

Steve

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I tip my ankles 20% if they did a really good job on the last turn. Sometimes after a really bad turn I will not tip them at all.
 

geepers

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Didn't say you were resisting. That was a general statement, and common with people we train.

Hips, pelvis, core... this is what gets attention after people are more aware of their feet. From the feet up, not ONLY the feet, is where I'm coming from. Too often tech discussions turn binary which is why I don't often post in them. :)

We may be on the same page...

No I don’t tip my ankles inside the boots, they should be satisfied with the monies spend on them to be comfortable, supported and correctly aligned in the boot. Expecting a tip is just outrageous.

:ogbiggrin: :duck:

In North America they want 15% because....well just because. In Australia they only get 5% (or $10 whichever is the smaller) when they've done a good job. Plus holidays and sick leave. They used to get time and 1/2 for weekend night skiing but the Govt put a stop to that.
 
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LiquidFeet

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....
This small ROM and the invisibility of ankle-tipping's role in rolling the knee is why so many people don't bother with the ankles. The question becomes, how much of an advantage does tipping the ankles give to those who do?
....

Anyone want to respond?
 

Mike King

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Anyone want to respond?
Skiing is a dynamic sport. Are the ankles involved? Absolutely. But when? And if you say initiate tipping with the feet, when precisely is that? And do you mean untipping or only tipping itself?

Tom Gellie, who is a serious proponent of the importance of the feet and the use of the subtalar joint, is a big advocate of toppling to change edges. His mechanics of toppling is that the upper body is taking a different path than the feet -- that is, the body is released from its arc while the feet continue on theirs. The result is that the body falls (literally) into the next turn. So, what is the role of tipping in the release? It would appear to be not important at all...

It seems to me this is consistent with what Takao is coaching in that video.

Mike
 

Dakine

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For me, ankle movement starts the chain of movements that eventually makes me feel like I'm throwing my upper body inside the apex of my new turn.
A "Skate to where the puck is going to be" move.
 

markojp

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For me, ankle movement starts the chain of movements that eventually makes me feel like I'm throwing my upper body inside the apex of my new turn.
A "Skate to where the puck is going to be" move.

FWIW, I never feel I'm throwing my body into a turn. When all cylinders are firing and I'm skiing well, the bottoms of my feet feel like magnets being pulled to the earth's core, even at higher edge angles.
 

markojp

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Anyone want to respond?

Small movements closer to the snow get more done with less energy expenditure keeping your feet under you... you get to adjust your roots instead of just tossing yourself around in a breeze, but I think you know this.
 

François Pugh

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Skiing is a dynamic sport. Are the ankles involved? Absolutely. But when? And if you say initiate tipping with the feet, when precisely is that? And do you mean untipping or only tipping itself?

Tom Gellie, who is a serious proponent of the importance of the feet and the use of the subtalar joint, is a big advocate of toppling to change edges. His mechanics of toppling is that the upper body is taking a different path than the feet -- that is, the body is released from its arc while the feet continue on theirs. The result is that the body falls (literally) into the next turn. So, what is the role of tipping in the release? It would appear to be not important at all...

It seems to me this is consistent with what Takao is coaching in that video.

Mike
It's better when everythong works together, e.g. flex to release while untipping skis/feet, COM crossing over skis and shins necessarily putting skis at a new angle while feet/skis are being tipped onto their new edges by foot tipping while new edges are accepting the load.
 

markojp

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It's better when everythong works together, e.g. flex to release while untipping skis/feet, COM crossing over skis and shins necessarily putting skis at a new angle while feet/skis are being tipped onto their new edges by foot tipping while new edges are accepting the load.

Just curious, but has anyone said "It's only ankles" ? I haven't read the whole thread.
 

JESinstr

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Anyone want to respond?

Let's take a "Task" approach.

If one wants to make a "Ski Turn" the high level task is to activate the carving (arc creating) functions of the ski. The first task under that is to place the ski on edge while maintaining dynamic balance to manage fore/aft pressure.

So if the task is to create and build edge angle, what is the easiest and most effective way? From a strictly body to outside ski perspective, do you focus on directing pressure to the big toe edge of your foot or do you focus on lifting the little toe outside edge of the foot? In both cases, the ankle must roll.

Sitting in a chair, try both. Which seems easier? Which one promotes an inherently wider range of motion? Which one better enables the upward kinetic chain?

Food for thought
 

François Pugh

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Just curious, but has anyone said "It's only ankles" ? I haven't read the whole thread.
Not as I recall, just questions of importance and timing. Obviously, I think it's important. As to timing, does it come from the core or ultimately from the ground or perhaps elsewhere? IMHO, people should find their own answer to that question
 

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