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Do you tip your ankle(s) inside your boots?

geepers

Skiing the powder
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There's more than a few examples of Marcel's transitions in this vid


Slow it down and scroll back/forth through examples and there's a whole range of types. Inside leg 1st, outside leg 1st, a-frames, o-frames - there's 0-frames created by repositioning the new outside leg whilst the old outside leg tracks on.

About the only thing that's certain is that he uses whatever is needed to get around the gate.

Is it really the case that we either move the inside leg 1st or we are doomed to sequential turning?

Lucky snow boarders - no old outside leg to get out of the way in order to topple....
 

Chris V.

Making fresh tracks
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About the only thing that's certain is that he uses whatever is needed to get around the gate.
There are no style points in ski racing.

Most of us are maybe 5% along the path that would lead to being a World Cup racer. Skiing recreationally, maybe we ARE going for style points, or at least a style that allows us to ski in complete control without being too hard on the body. Getting just that one baseline style dialed in is already quite a challenge, even before throwing in all the variations on a theme.

As an example, maybe at times Hirscher loses grip with the outside ski, and catches himself with the little toe edge of the inside ski and rides that for a bit. How many of us could pull that off even once, dealing with World Cup level G forces?

The more you ski, the more you gain respect for what top level athletes achieve.
 

razie

Sir Shiftsalot
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There's more than a few examples of Marcel's transitions in this vid


Slow it down and scroll back/forth through examples and there's a whole range of types. Inside leg 1st, outside leg 1st, a-frames, o-frames - there's 0-frames created by repositioning the new outside leg whilst the old outside leg tracks on.

About the only thing that's certain is that he uses whatever is needed to get around the gate.

Is it really the case that we either move the inside leg 1st or we are doomed to sequential turning?

Lucky snow boarders - no old outside leg to get out of the way in order to topple....

The question is not what comes out when pushing the limits of what's humanly possible, but what the "goto" movement is. Simply put: if you don't master the inside leg tipping at will on regular slopes, you won't do it when the going gets tough. Once it is burned into the muscles as an automatic response, then you own it and do whatever we want... but until that point, it's not an option, it's an impossibility!

@Loki1 at big angles, we stand on the outside ski, which is why we can't tip it anymore. It's in closed chain mode at that point. The inside ski is not, so we're free to do stuff with it: push it forward, pull it back, tip it, weight it, bring it in, bring it out whatever. Also, we're standing on the outside ski with pressure for only 30-50% of the turn, so you're missing the 50% of the turn where there isn't enough pressure to consider the chain "closed" and where in fact the big angles are being created, in preparation for the "pressure phase". See my analysis of the pressure phases of the video above. We pressure the outside ski once the big angles are largely created, not before, or it will wash out!! Pressure 101: patience to the riseline.

The "pressure the outside ski as soon as possible" is a red herring. It's possible only when it won't wash out anymore... and we all know that as soon as you brace against it, the only way to create angles is to "fall inside" like a tree trunk, because you're braced and mostly locked up!

outside ski below is flat in transition at .49 and pressured only at 1.02 once the angles have been established, as clearly showed by snow displacement. In between, it is clearly tipped without being pressured, even as it extends from a deep flex to long leg! And this is a lazy turn!


flat, no pressure, deep flexed:

1596139918388.png


and neither leg is in closed chain mode. one is even off the snow and they are both clearly tipped and repositioned while she's floating.

tipped and extended, still no pressure:

1596140000944.png


only now a bit of pressure appears - the snow is soft so the snow spray shows there's a tiny bit of pressure there. At high pressure, the ski digs in and displaces a lot of snow

the simplest proof that the leg was not in closed chain mode is that it was extended from the previous frame with the hip in the same position. The definition of "closed" is when you can't move that extremity!! While she was able to both move the outside boot away from under the hips, extend the leg while the hips stayed level and tip it on edge significantly! Not closed by any stretch of the imagination!!!

If that leg was stuck to the snow, the other end would have to move to allow it to extend, the classic "hop" that most skiers do. Not WC skiers! This is why flexing is critical: it decouples the feet from the hips!

1596140047034.png


if you watch the video carefully again, you will see this is when her body "lands" on the ski and creates pressure and braces against it, making it even more obvious that there wasn't pressure before!! I don't know how to make this any more obvious than that!! The shock is very visible as the body tenses up to resist the pressure.... around 1.07, that's when the ski finally bends so the max pressure is finally there.

physics: at high angles, the ski bends with pressure. If the ski is engaged but not turning, it's not bent, so there's not enough pressure on it, no matter what we may think!

and then:

big pressure, big spray, barely any more angles created since pressure appeared:

1596140140435.png


she is tipping the inside leg too, but that wide stance doesn't help make that either easy or very visible

what';s more, in the previous turn, look how far she caried the angles before ANY pressure appeared on the outside leg:

1596140533044.png


and that allowe her THIS angle at max pressure:

1596140597073.png


The take-away is simple: create angles before pressure appears! Now, would someone work it back from here into what the skier has to do to create angles, without pressure ;)


...and then we get here, where the old outside ski is clearly deep flexing and flattening to release, very much unweighted and in open chain, free to play checkers or continue tipping into the new turn:

1596141190504.png


instead... she gets lazy with it after releasing and ends up in the "wee stance", focused more clearly on tipping the outside foot:

1596141293911.png


...but she gets these crazy angles even with a beer in one hand, so... whatever....
 
Last edited:

Loki1

Putting on skis
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Apr 25, 2017
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Oh Razie. You still think pressure is the defining aspect of what we ar talking about here. Clearly open chain refers to a foot that can move freely. Do you think your foot moves freely in a ski boot? The definition is based upon that, pressure or no pressure, doesn’t matter. The other thing you are not realizing is that the kinetic chain refers to a group of movements that occur to create an outcome. They can be simultaneous or sequential, or both. As in a baseball pitch or say a ski turn. Simultaneous or sequential. The kinetic chain doesn’t require a cascade of movements, one causing the other, as you so want it to be. Without the sequential aspect of the kinetic chain your arguments are lost.
Also if you can’t see the difference between you and Wendy Holdners turn you need to practice more. The differences are obvious and have nothing to do with her being lazy. As well as the primary edge change movements in her skiing are not flex while transitioning. You need to let go of your biases and start to see what is really happening. Stop trying to prove your technique when it isn’t shown. You’re athletes will be more successful when you do.
 

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