Do you tip your ankle(s) inside your boots?

[Dakine]

François Pugh said:
This direction the foot naturally points to if unconstrained may help explain the mysterious connection between tip pressure, tipping and shortening the turn.

Might you elaborate?

Please do.
I have wide, naturally splayed feet and have always thought this affects my skiing when they are forced to be parallel.

 

[mister moose]

I'm having trouble with this. I just don't have lateral ankle movement in my boots. I can tip my boots left and right, and I can flex the boot forward. That's it. I can change my body position over my boot. I have a molded footbed, a molded boot tongue, and molded liner. The liner is the consistency of a pencil eraser - movement is very small. My boots are built to eliminate interior movement, not to utilize it. Pronation and supination have no relevance.

And while whatever fancy dancing you guys are doing inside your boot in all that extra room you have, you still have to move the boot to move the ski. Laterally, the calf has to move. Has to. Fore and aft, it's all the ankle joint. Both are assisted by upper body position.

So it's ski position we move to - move to an edge angle, move fore aft to affect position/pressure. (We also rotate, but that happens without motion of the foot inside the boot). To me, big toe/little toe, ankle subtleties, all those dozens of little bones and joints - is in the balance category.

 

[Tony S]

I don't think that in well fitted boots, the ankle actually moves much but you can completely change where your foot puts pressure on the boot.

+1

 

[Tony S]

To me, big toe/little toe, ankle subtleties, all those dozens of little bones and joints - is in the balance category.

The way you say this, there is an implied pejorative "just" - e.g., "it's just balance". I think if you take the "just" out, you're not in a very different place from others.

Think of it like this. You are standing still on a green trail. You release your edges and allow yourself to start gliding straight down the fall line. Now you want to start a turn. What is the very first thing you do?

I can't speak for you, but for me, the first thing I do is try to tip the new inside foot onto its little-toe edge, inside the boot. Everything else flows from that.

 

[mister moose]

My takeaway from this is that the number one goal of lateral movement of the feet inside boots should be to promote balance. We (most of us) are not skiing on peg legs. We aren't skiing on leg bones set into concrete boots.

This makes me think about landing a jump turn where you land on a new edge, and on any kind of pitch, you land only on the edge. That landing needs tons of support, and most of it does not come from the ankle. It comes from the boot. So to a certain extent, yes, it feels (sorta) like a club foot.

 

[mister moose]

The way you say this, there is an implied pejorative "just" - e.g., "it's just balance". I think if you take the "just" out, you're not in a very different place from others.

Kinda sorta, but I can't get there. Don't get me wrong, balance is key. But we are talking ankle movements, motion, change in position. Aren't we?

Think of it like this. You are standing still on a green trail. You release your edges and allow yourself to start gliding straight down the fall line. Now you want to start a turn

From your description, I'm already well into the turn.

What is the very first thing you do?

I can't speak for you, but for me, the first thing I do is try to tip the new inside foot onto its little-toe edge, inside the boot. Everything else flows from that.

So the "very first thing" is to tip the foot before you tip the ski?

 

[Eleeski]

You guys are all lucky. My ankles are so loose that tipping them has no effect. I have to dynamically move and trust that the boot will keep things from rattling too much. Orthotics improved my skiing by stabilizing my ankle.

Pressure on the bottom of the in the right spots foot is critical - however you do that. Sometimes, pressuring the side of the boot helps - but I do that with my knees and hips more.

If I'm trying to force things with my ankles, I'm way behind the balance curve. For me it's very distracting to even think about my ankles. I improve my form by seeking a powerful stacked balance. So I'd never recommend trying to tip my ankles inside the boot.

Eric

 

[karlo]

If I'm trying to force things with my ankles, I'm way behind the balance curve. For me it's very distracting to even think about my ankles. I improve my form by seeking a powerful stacked balance. So I'd never recommend trying to tip my ankles inside the boot.

I’ll bet you’re using your ankles without knowing it. It’s just the conscious effort to do so that throw things off.

 

[François Pugh]

I'm having trouble with this. I just don't have lateral ankle movement in my boots. I can tip my boots left and right, and I can flex the boot forward. That's it. I can change my body position over my boot. I have a molded footbed, a molded boot tongue, and molded liner. The liner is the consistency of a pencil eraser - movement is very small. My boots are built to eliminate interior movement, not to utilize it. Pronation and supination have no relevance.

And while whatever fancy dancing you guys are doing inside your boot in all that extra room you have, you still have to move the boot to move the ski. Laterally, the calf has to move. Has to. Fore and aft, it's all the ankle joint. Both are assisted by upper body position.

So it's ski position we move to - move to an edge angle, move fore aft to affect position/pressure. (We also rotate, but that happens without motion of the foot inside the boot). To me, big toe/little toe, ankle subtleties, all those dozens of little bones and joints - is in the balance category.

I can relate. My liners have the consistency of concrete. I have come to believe the intention to move the ankle in certain ways influences how we direct forces through the "frozen in place" ankle.

Although, I understand from the internet experts that having a modern "more mobile" boot might improve my control and my skiing, I am very grateful for the boots ability to reinforce my feet and allow them to handle forces that would have broken them without the support.

 

[François Pugh]

Might you elaborate?

The hinge joint at the ankle directly connects tipping left with pressuring the tips right; if it weren't for the snow the tips would move right. Perhaps it works both ways.

 

[Eleeski]

I’ll bet you’re using your ankles without knowing it. It’s just the conscious effort to do so that throw things off.

Actually, a conscious effort to relax my ankles improves things. So you are right that I might be using them but not to any benefit.

The instability in my ankles (whether it's weakness, loose tendons or just defective) might make me an unusual case.

Eric

 

[karlo]

I might be using them but not to any benefit.

Of you are using them, even unconsciously, it is to your benefit. Next time out, consciously don’t use them. Lock them

 

[Mike King]

The hinge joint at the ankle directly connects tipping left with pressuring the tips right; if it weren't for the snow the tips would move right. Perhaps it works both ways.

I don't think so. The subtalar joint tips the foot into inversion and eversion -- if you want the foot to plantar or dorsiflex, that movement comes from the ankle ( talocrural) joint.

Or perhaps I'm not understanding you.

 

[François Pugh]

Regardless of what joint does what, the connection between tip feet right and move tips left is still there, and so is the connection between intents.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Regardless of what joint does what, the connection between tip feet right and move tips left is still there, and so is the connection between intents.

Remeber back when Josh Matta talked about this? He was convinced that if the skier attempted to point the forefeet/toes/tips to the right after initiating tipping feet/skis for a left turn, the turn would improve. That's because the tipping would be strengthened because the subtalar joint is a tilted hinge, as in the illustration I posted above. Toe pointing accompanies foot tipping at the ankle. Or below the ankle if we are being super precise.

When boots are super stiff and snug, we are talking about a very tiny ROM. It may even be an isometric contraction of the muscles without actual movement.

 

[Mike King]

Remeber back when Josh Matta talked about this? He was convinced that if the skier attempted to point the forefeet/toes/tips to the right after initiating tipping feet/skis for a left turn, the turn would improve. That's because the tipping would be strengthened because the subtalar joint is a tilted hinge, as in the illustration I posted above. Toe pointing accompanies foot tipping at the ankle. Or below the ankle if we are being super precise.

When boots are super stiff and snug, we are talking about a very tiny ROM. It may even be an isometric contraction of the muscles without actual movement.

You don't need much movement to change the direction of pressure. Tom Gellie has some great video in his webinar on arches of the feet that shows the difference between someone doing nothing with their foot tipping and someone actively engaging the tipping of the feet. The difference? Grip.

Mike

 

[LiquidFeet]

Right. Josh Matta tested this with his intermediate students, and they reported better turning. I don't remember if they stipulated "grip" but I bet that was what it was.

If the foot won't actually turn, the tibia will. It's not stuck in the snow via a long plank. The direction the tibia turns will increase the tipping without causing the shoulder or hip to drop farther into the turn, so maybe it reduces platform angle and thus assures grip where it was lacking before.

This whole business of intending to point the toes outward while tipping the skis into the turn, with the tibias rotating into the turn as a result, is fascinating. No movement inside the boot is necessary for this to happen, just the intention and muscular contraction to point the toes. Intending to ankle-tip accomplishes the same thing. It's invisible. Subtle but important payload delivered by small ROM.

 

[James]

No one who does this at a high level has loose fitting boots. That’s just a misunderstanding. You can have good snug fit under and above the medial ankle bone area as long as there’s some space. If you completely lock up your foot/ankle, you now have club foot which ruins the balance system. It’s like making the complicated natural foot/ankle into a prosthetic one.

Another thing to keep on mind is if you lift your forefoot you inhibit tipping to the medial side. It also stiffens the arch. I think what you want is the arch to stiffen from the tension between the three points from standing on the ground plane. Which brings up another point- you should have enough width room when your foot is weighted to tension the foot.

This is one of two spots where the Tibialis Anterior attaches. The other being the medial cuneiform bone just before it.

 

[razie]

A lot of good things have been said already.

One thing to note is that, as a coach, you can see the tipping or lack thereof based on many things, but one subtle cue is where the boot is tipped from.

Tippers tip the boots from the bottom, with the feet. Hip dumpers tip the boots from the top, from the hips/knees/tibias.

Looking at this, can you see the tipping of the inside foot, based on the boot cuff?

 

[James]

Looking at this, can you see the tipping of the inside foot, based on the boot cuff?

It’s subtle, but contact with the calf on the boot cuff is on the medial side. Not lateral.