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Do you tip your ankle(s) inside your boots?

Tony S

I have a confusion to make ...
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From your description, I'm already well into the turn.

Yeah, I could have described that better. Sorry. The bit about the edge release was a prelude, merely meant to emphasize that I was starting from zero, not coming out of a previous turn.

So the "very first thing" is to tip the foot before you tip the ski?

Yes. There is no such thing as "tipping the ski"; you have to move some part of your body before the ski will tip.

The key thing is what I'm not doing: I'm not moving my shin or knee or hip or shoulders laterally. (My guess is that when you said "tip the ski," you were thinking of moving the boot shaft somehow by moving your shin or knee.) I'm also not pushing my COM to the inside with my new outside leg.

This is part of the point of Razie's post and James's comment immediately above. If the skier in Razie's photo had started the move with his shin, James would have to reverse his comment.
 

JESinstr

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I’ll bet you’re using your ankles without knowing it. It’s just the conscious effort to do so that throw things off.

Do I focus on tipping my ankles? no. I focus on lifting the outside edges of my skis.
Do my ankles tip? Yes, to the extent allowed by the boot.
 

Dakine

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There isn't much closure around this place regarding exactly how a carved turn starts.
I keep changing my mind but I think I'm convinced it starts with something I do with the muscles that activate my little toes on the LTE of the soon to be old inside ski.
That starts a movement chain that feels like I'm pressuring the medial forward side of that boot followed by much larger movements all over.
That's only when things are working well.
 

Steve

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Nicely explained Dakine, I can feel that just sitting here.
 

mister moose

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Yes. There is no such thing as "tipping the ski"; you have to move some part of your body before the ski will tip.

The key thing is what I'm not doing: I'm not moving my shin or knee or hip or shoulders laterally. (My guess is that when you said "tip the ski," you were thinking of moving the boot shaft somehow by moving your shin or knee.) I'm also not pushing my COM to the inside with my new outside leg.

This is part of the point of Razie's post and James's comment immediately above. If the skier in Razie's photo had started the move with his shin, James would have to reverse his comment.

If you move your ankle before you tip the ski, you by definition are taking up the slop in the boot before the boot moves. The boot lateral angle IS the tipping angle. A firm closure on the top buckle plus the power strap marries the boot to your tibia. There is a little flesh compression possible, but the moment of edge change has no such side loads. The boot lateral angle tracks the tibia. Or you have a loose boot.

Otherwise, the boot shell has to move without moving the tibia laterally.... how does one do this in a well fit well tightened ski boot?
 

Steve

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Bottom of foot subtalar joint shifts your weight.
 

Steve

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There is movement, but not in the Tibia and ankle joint, in the subtalar joint. The bottom of the foot moves shifting the weight above it.
 

Mike King

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@mister moose, try this out for kicks and giggles. Put on your boots and buckle them up. Now try to rotate the lower leg to the left. What happens to the boots? Try rotating the lower leg to the right. Same question.

If you are steering the foot at the same time you are cheating.
 

Loki1

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I would say that it is a good mental image to think about when talking about tipping the skis.
From a biomechanical basis, edging movements that feel like they come from the ankle actually come from the movement of the femur in the hip socket. In skiing when effecting edge angle there are 2 things to think about. One is the the angle of the knee joint, the other is the relationship of the boot, contact with the footbed/snow and closed chain movements. There was a video posted in another thread, by Razie, that talks about closed/open chain movements. Most movements in skiing would be considered closed chain movements. Basically closed chain refers to the foot being in contact with a surface and weighted. When in a closed chain, movements come from the femur not the subtalar joint. Even though your focus may be the ankle and that's where you feel it happening. The other thing to think about is that the leg cannot turn independent of the femur without the knee angle being 90 degrees or less. While the femur will become more disengaged with the leg as it approaches 90 degrees, it is not untill that angle that the lower leg will become completely disengaged. So all the talk of the mitre action of the subtalar joint is not applicable unitl then and in open chain situation.
I think the most important aspect we need to know however is that the movemnet happens in the hip, but more importantly the focus should be on the ski or edge itself during the actual attempt of edging. This comes back to the idea of internal versus external cues. While discussing the movemnet we most certainly need to speak of the movements and where they come from internally, but when we are working on the movement itself we need to think about external cues and how they determine the outcome. We as instructors/coaches neded to know the actual basis of the movements but that doesnt mean we need to make the students/athletes aware of that basis. It is more important that they figure out hopw to move in a way that gets the desired outcome on thier own.
 
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LiquidFeet

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....The other thing to think about is that the leg cannot turn independent of the femur without the knee angle being 90 degrees or less. While the femur will become more disengaged with the leg as it approaches 90 degrees, it is not untill that angle that the lower leg will become completely disengaged. So all the talk of the mitre action of the subtalar joint is not applicable unitl then and in open chain situation.....
Interesting. It took me a bit of time to figure out what you meant by "the leg." I'm now thinking you mean "the lower leg." This is new information for me. Thanks for pointing it out.

However...
A skier can use muscles to make the foot evert/invert, even when the whole leg is straight. Lift little toe side of forefoot, or lift big toe side. The forefoot wants to rotate because of the subtalar joint's axis, but since the foot is stationed on the ground the tibia rotates instead. This muscle activation can be done while standing with load in ski boots, in which case the tibia/lower leg will rotate. The amount of rotation depends on the bend in the knee; a bent knee moves farther. The femur rotation that accompanies this knee rolling is passive, caused by the lateral movement of the knee. Allowing the knee to move laterally because of the muscle activation at the foot means the skier is initiating the femur rotation from down at the foot.
 

Loki1

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However...
A skier can use muscles to make the foot evert/invert, even when the whole leg is straight. Lift little toe side of forefoot, or lift big toe side. The forefoot wants to rotate because of the subtalar joint's axis, but since the foot is stationed on the ground the tibia rotates instead. This muscle activation can be done while standing with load in ski boots, in which case the tibia/lower leg will rotate. The amount of rotation depends on the bend in the knee; a bent knee moves farther. The femur rotation that accompanies this knee rolling is passive, caused by the lateral movement of the knee. Allowing the knee to move laterally because of the muscle activation at the foot means the skier is initiating the femur rotation from down at the foot.

Listen to the video at 3:08. It explains that movements crime from the leg in closed chain environments.
 

Loki1

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Also “knee angulation” comes deform the femur rotating with in the hoop socket. The knee is a modified hinge joint and has no real lateral or rotational movement. However, as I explained above, there is rotation of the leg when the joint is flexed at 90 degrees or less. So any rotation or lateral movement of the leg/foot comes from the femur moving within the hip socket in closed chain movements.
Another thing to look at here is while many feel that they can start the edging movement in the foot/ankle. The real edging action has to come from abduction/adduction of the leg. Again the pelvis and femur are responsible for these movements.
 

Mike King

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@Loki1 I am no expert in biomechanics, but I know enough to be dangerous. I did experiment a bit today and it appears perfectly possible to rotate the lower leg in a closed chain sufficiently to cause the subtalar joint to tip the foot. Further, we aren't looking for a huge amount of tipping -- rather it is a bit. Most of the tipping will come from tipping the lower leg or from (caution, possible controversy here) inclining the body into the turn.

Another way to tip the foot is by pointing the feet to the outside of the turn...

Mike
 

markojp

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So the "very first thing" is to tip the foot before you tip the ski?

Yes. When you 'tip' the foot/feet in the boot, it ISN'T slopping around in a loose boot, it's applying pressure in the boot through small movements in the subtalar joint. This pressure (again, not big, sloppy macro movements) tips the boot, which tips the ski. Can you put a ski on edge with bigger movements of the knee, hip, or even inclining the shoulders? Sure. But those big movements, when they originate higher up the chain, are gross movements that are very easy to compromise lateral balance. Good skiing starts from the feet. Ask any technically strong, accurate skier, and they'll confirm this. I can't think of any exceptions.
 

geepers

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Don't know if this is a valid experiment - just putting it out there.

You will need:
1. A hard floor with no give in it - carpet is not firm enough
2. Something solid to to lean against to constrain your knee and hip - like the corner of a kitchen bench.

Set up like this. Knee against the vertical, hip along the bench, foot flat on floor 2.54 cm away to allow the ankle some room if it chooses to move. Put 50% or more of your weight on that foot.
KneeConstrainer.JPG


Without allowing your knee or hip to move see how far you can tilt your foot. No twisting of the foot - pretend your are constrained by a ski.

I believe my ankle physiology is mostly normal for a 60+ y/o - not too loose nor too tight. I can lift my little toe but the outer metatarsals do not leave the surface and there's sweet FA change in pressure along the inside edge of my foot.


Interested to see similar vid of anyone who can tilt significantly with the same constraint on knee and hip.
 
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LiquidFeet

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....2. Something solid to to lean against to constrain your knee and hip - like the corner of a kitchen bench.
....Without allowing your knee or hip to move see how far you can tilt your foot. No twisting of the foot - pretend your are constrained by a ski.....

By restraining the movement of your knee and forbidding the pointing of the forefoot, you are stopping the tilt at the subtalar joint. Bones inside your foot shift around, but that subtalar joint is not being used. If you succeed actually everting or inverting the foot, and if the fore foot is constrained from moving, the tibia will rotate and the knee will move with it.

This knee/tibia movement that accompanies tilting the foot at the subtalar joint is in the direction we want our lower legs to tilt when edging a ski. So starting with tipping the foot at the subtalar joint, down inside the boot, helps tilt the lower leg. It's a byproduct of the ankle action, and a good thing for skiers to do.
Daily Yoga Tip: Evert to Avert Knee Pain
Knee Pointing - not a technique issue - Page 2
 
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LiquidFeet

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It's easy to find subtalar movement diagrams on the internet. They accurately indicate the rotation of the foot and the tibia like the one below, but they do not include the toe-pointing part of this movement in the diagrams. Why not? Because when people make these diagrams, they have walking and running in mind. Not skiing.
inferior tibiofibular jnt. tibiotalar jnt. lateral - ppt video ...

Below is one diagram showing the toe-pointing action while walking. The accompanying rotation of the tibia and the foot, as shown in the diagram above, is not shown in this one below, but it's happening. This tibia does not tilt because the foot is free to rotate and dorsi/plantarflex; the person can hold the tibia vertical while the foot does its thing. When those foot movements are constrained in ski boots and when the ski is locked into snow and it restrains the forefoot from rotating, the tibia tilts and the knee moves.

Most people making these diagrams are dealing with walking and running, not skiing. I can't find any diagram that indicates the forced movement of the tibia/knee for skiers who tip the foot at the subtalar joint.
Ankle & foot biomechanics
 
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