Do you tip your ankle(s) inside your boots?

[LiquidFeet]

That's really weird.
You tipped the left ski to its little toe edge (outside edge) to start a turn to the left and it went right, causing crossed tips? Did you ever figure out how that happened?
Diverging tips can happen if one has too much weight on the new inside ski as it tips onto its LTE. But crossed tips? Just weird.

 

[François Pugh]

Because the ski had a lot of camber, the mostly unweighted left ski's leading little toe edge was drawing the ski back and to the right, near as I can figure in hindsight.

 

[James]

Because the ski had a lot of camber, the mostly unweighted left ski's leading little toe edge was drawing the ski back and to the right, near as I can figure in hindsight.

Pretty sure I’ve had that happen with some variable but mostly packed snow and very little base bevel, 0.3 supposedly, on slalom skis. It was pretty scary.
My conclusion was to be much more intentional and active with that inside foot. And then it could happen anyway.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Still trying to see how this might happen.
Could it be that the very front of the ski tip, where it narrows to a point, was contacting the snow with load, way up there beyond where one sharpens the edge, while the rest of the ski was light?

 

[François Pugh]

It seems pretty simple to me. Tip a cambered ski onto it's left edge. From the contact point to the mid-point of the ski, the edge is pointing to the right. BTW, there is no "beyond"; my skis are razor sharp tip to tail, as all skis should be .

 

[Rod9301]

@Rod9301 Only if you define too much weight as enough weight to allow the ski to interact with the snow; it is true that if I had lifted the ski off the snow (which was part of the recovery move), the edge would not have engaged. Be extra careful with making sure not too much weight is on the ski, most dangerous case for people like me who don't automatically make moves they aren't told to make when following instructions to the letter, imho, is not enough weight to decamber a cambered ski, but enough weight to allow that leading little toe edge to catch and send the ski to the other side.

Eventually you'll be able to do a weighted release, which is the fastest. With weight on your old downhill ski, just tip it to the little toe edge, and be ready to shift the weight to the new outside ski at any point.

 

[François Pugh]

Just for the record, I've been skiing for over half a century, and always liked to explore stuff. I explored more types of transitions and releases than you can shake a stick at (many before I even knew what they were called), weighted, unweighted, up-unweighting, down-unweighting, flex to release, cross-over, cross-under, cross-through, whatever. Been there, done that.

 

[LiquidFeet]

It seems pretty simple to me. Tip a cambered ski onto it's left edge. From the contact point to the mid-point of the ski, the edge is pointing to the right. BTW, there is no "beyond"; my skis are razor sharp tip to tail, as all skis should be .

This makes sense to me, finally. Thanks for hanging in there with the descriptions. I appreciate it.

 

[Loki1]

No.

Ankle-tipping the new inside ankle first overwrites the human desire to edge the outside ski first since it does the heavy work. Focusing on the inside activity first causes the preferred simultaneous turn entry. Working with an inside foot/leg focus "clears" the new inside ski to make room for the outside ski to do its thing.

Too often instructional words focus on managing the outside ski/foot/leg and only ask the inside ski/foot/leg to "match" what the outside is doing. That way of thinking and talking and acting causes sequential turn entries with all the associated unpleasantries.
[/QUOTE]

so you are saying that by tipping one first, and then tipping the other one after it produces a simultaneous movement? Sorry but I’m having a hard time reconciling this.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Do I mean it exactly as stated? Yes, as long as I explain with more words. So here goes.

Many skiers think they are doing something when they aren't. As instructors we are very familiar with this fact. That's what often happens when people focus on the outside ski as the most important ski to tip. When these skiers think they are tipping both at the same time, they are actually tipping the outside first. So the turn entry ends up being sequential, not simultaneous. It bugs me that the most recent PSIA alpine manual continues to say to tip the outside ski and match the inside ski to it. That word "match," along with mentioning what the inside ski does second in the descriptions, means the outside ski leads the tipping. Sequential-ness is embedded in the words used to describe the process.

Reverse the sequence. Switch the way one thinks and talks and acts in turn initiation. Focus on the inside ski, think about tipping the inside ski first, and the outside ski will follow to "match" it. Yes, there will be a sequential entry. But... a skier can end up with a sequential entry that can't be seen because the time lag is only a nano-second, or it can be visible because that time lag is long enough to be seen. Learn to tip the new inside ski first, let it become embedded in muscle memory, and then choose to tip both at the same time and voila you've got your simultaneous turn entry that is so difficult to achieve for some people.

It's much more difficult to get the simultaneous entry by starting with the outside ski, since it's the one that does the heavy work of carrying the skier through the turn. Skiers are easily tempted to ignore the inside ski as being there only to stop a fall should balance be lost. I find this sad.

The description I just provided is an ideal description, Loki. Ideal. Reality presents us with so many variations.

None of this ignores the fact that the outside ski needs to carry the load through the turn. It's the work horse in the system.

 

[Steve]

Imagine a rope tied between your legs. Tip the ankles keeping it taught. If you start with the right foot to tip to the right you “pull” the left foot over. If you start with the left the rope goes slack and you get an A frame.

 

[Rod9301]

No.

Ankle-tipping the new inside ankle first overwrites the human desire to edge the outside ski first since it does the heavy work. Focusing on the inside activity first causes the preferred simultaneous turn entry. Working with an inside foot/leg focus "clears" the new inside ski to make room for the outside ski to do its thing.

Too often instructional words focus on managing the outside ski/foot/leg and only ask the inside ski/foot/leg to "match" what the outside is doing. That way of thinking and talking and acting causes sequential turn entries with all the associated unpleasantries.

so you are saying that by tipping one first, and then tipping the other one after it produces a simultaneous movement? Sorry but I’m having a hard time reconciling this.
[/QUOTE]
Well it's not simultaneous, since you're tipping the old outside foot first.

But this is a much better way to ski than focusing on tipping the old inside foot.

 

[Eric@ict]

Yes, it was explained to me as releasing the ankle. Im simple and my instructor knows it, so he speaks at my level.

 

[Eric@ict]

"Ankelation" is being taught by one of our most successful local USSA coaches.
Concentrating on what my ankles are doing during transition helped my skiing.
Local coach says the stuff that goes on in your boots that no one can see is at the core of good skiing.
All the other movement patterns that you can see should follow what your ankles are doing.
I don't think that in well fitted boots, the ankle actually moves much but you can completely change where your foot puts pressure on the boot.
Paying attention to the pressure on the inside front portion of my ankles cleaned up some of my bad habits.

YES THIS^^^^^ big toe, little toe. release the ankle. Is what I have been taught. It made a huge difference in how my skis preformed and acted on the snow. Once I realized and was able to do this, skiing became a whole new experience for me. It went from me feeling like I was forcing the skis to do what I wanted to me thinking it and the skis doing it, if that makes sense.

 

[Steve]

If you’re holding a stick in both hands, which hand initiates the movement doesn’t move before the other. It’s pulling the other one. So tipping the old outside ski as the focus doesn’t necessarily create a non simultaneous tipping. It’s the muscle that moves first not the foot that tips first. @Loki1 does this jive with your thinking better?

 

[Loki1]

First I agree with the statement that many skiers “think they are doing something that they are not.” This entire thread is a testament to that fact!

Liquidfeet. Listen to what you are saying. The outside ski carries the load through the turn. This implies that we need to balance on that ski. If I am leading with the inside ski/leg and that is what is causing my outside ski to “match” that movement then balance would be directed to the inside ski not the outside ski. Also the idea of teaching sequential movements and then just magically changing/choosing to move simultaneously is a bit misguided . I can see a scenario where one focuses on the inside and then the outside to develop both and then moves to doing both at the same time. This could develop simultaneous movements. However if you feel at some point they can just ”choose” to move simultaneously, then just ask them to do that first.
Also, why is it “much more difficult to get the simultaneous entry by starting with the outside ski, since it's the one that does the heavy work of carrying the skier through the turn”? Why does this matter and what is the real consequence? Please explain this idea further.

Steve you said: If you start with the left the rope goes slack and you get an A frame.
Explain to me why an A-frame is inherently bad? While many think that the apperance of an A-frame means that your stance is out of alignment or you are hip dumping it doesn’t Actually mean either of things. It just is a sign to look further into why the A-frame is there. Manyy people ski very well without detractions with an A-frames, most notable Lindsey Vonn.

Rod-But this is a much better way to ski than focusing on tipping the old inside foot.
Please explain why. What is better, what is the advantage?

Steve-I understand what you are saying but there isn‘t a stick, one movement doesn’t cause the other in this case. That is the problem with the entire argument. Leading with one doesn’t cause the other to do something, especially simultaneously. I am just asking people to think more about what they are saying and if the cause and effect relationships they claim to elicit are truly happening.

 

[markojp]

First I agree with the statement that many skiers “think they are doing something that they are not.” This entire thread is a testament to that fact!

Liquidfeet. Listen to what you are saying. The outside ski carries the load through the turn. This implies that we need to balance on that ski. If I am leading with the inside ski/leg and that is what is causing my outside ski to “match” that movement then balance would be directed to the inside ski not the outside ski. Also the idea of teaching sequential movements and then just magically changing/choosing to move simultaneously is a bit misguided . I can see a scenario where one focuses on the inside and then the outside to develop both and then moves to doing both at the same time. This could develop simultaneous movements. However if you feel at some point they can just ”choose” to move simultaneously, then just ask them to do that first.
Also, why is it “much more difficult to get the simultaneous entry by starting with the outside ski, since it's the one that does the heavy work of carrying the skier through the turn”? Why does this matter and what is the real consequence? Please explain this idea further.

Steve you said: If you start with the left the rope goes slack and you get an A frame.
Explain to me why an A-frame is inherently bad? While many think that the apperance of an A-frame means that your stance is out of alignment or you are hip dumping it doesn’t Actually mean either of things. It just is a sign to look further into why the A-frame is there. Manyy people ski very well without detractions with an A-frames, most notable Lindsey Vonn.

Rod-But this is a much better way to ski than focusing on tipping the old inside foot.
Please explain why. What is better, what is the advantage?

Steve-I understand what you are saying but there isn‘t a stick, one movement doesn’t cause the other in this case. That is the problem with the entire argument. Leading with one doesn’t cause the other to do something, especially simultaneously. I am just asking people to think more about what they are saying and if the cause and effect relationships they claim to elicit are truly happening.

This whole thing could be sorted out on snow in 10 minutes. Man, I'm growing to really hate words.

 

[Rod9301]

First I agree with the statement that many skiers “think they are doing something that they are not.” This entire thread is a testament to that fact!

Liquidfeet. Listen to what you are saying. The outside ski carries the load through the turn. This implies that we need to balance on that ski. If I am leading with the inside ski/leg and that is what is causing my outside ski to “match” that movement then balance would be directed to the inside ski not the outside ski. Also the idea of teaching sequential movements and then just magically changing/choosing to move simultaneously is a bit misguided . I can see a scenario where one focuses on the inside and then the outside to develop both and then moves to doing both at the same time. This could develop simultaneous movements. However if you feel at some point they can just ”choose” to move simultaneously, then just ask them to do that first.
Also, why is it “much more difficult to get the simultaneous entry by starting with the outside ski, since it's the one that does the heavy work of carrying the skier through the turn”? Why does this matter and what is the real consequence? Please explain this idea further.

Steve you said: If you start with the left the rope goes slack and you get an A frame.
Explain to me why an A-frame is inherently bad? While many think that the apperance of an A-frame means that your stance is out of alignment or you are hip dumping it doesn’t Actually mean either of things. It just is a sign to look further into why the A-frame is there. Manyy people ski very well without detractions with an A-frames, most notable Lindsey Vonn.

Rod-But this is a much better way to ski than focusing on tipping the old inside foot.
Please explain why. What is better, what is the advantage?

Steve-I understand what you are saying but there isn‘t a stick, one movement doesn’t cause the other in this case. That is the problem with the entire argument. Leading with one doesn’t cause the other to do something, especially simultaneously. I am just asking people to think more about what they are saying and if the cause and effect relationships they claim to elicit are truly happening.

There have been countless explanations as to why tipping the old outside ski is better.

I would rather not repeat all the discussions.

And if you're really interested, just look at all ski racers and you will see that they will do this, which, as an example, is why you see Hirscher with an o frame in transitions.

And the main reason why an a frame is undesirable is that the inside leg is used as an outrigger, causing weight on it, and less weight on the outside ski.

Sure vonn was doing it, but you will not see many if any young racers doing it.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....Liquidfeet. Listen to what you are saying. The outside ski carries the load through the turn. This implies that we need to balance on that ski. If I am leading with the inside ski/leg and that is what is causing my outside ski to “match” that movement then balance would be directed to the inside ski not the outside ski. ....

@Loki1, this must be the locus of the misunderstanding. A skier can tip that inside ski first and have next to zero weight on it. Just lift and tip. Or lighten and tip. Or keep it on the snow and tip while keeping it light. This can be taught.

Tipping the new inside ski starts with rolling the ankle and progresses to rolling the knee (which comes first for those who don't ankle-tip inside their boots). Flexing the new inside leg has to happen or these two "rolls" can't happen. Rotating that new inside femur in its hip socket happens to enable the knee-rolling. Other stuff is involved too. I could produce more words.....

This is why verbal descriptions of movement patterns generate arguments. It takes too many words to include everything that's going on that someone might misunderstand. I get @markojp's frustration. Verbal misunderstandings lead to confusion and even anger is one person thinks someone else is promoting dysfunctional movements.

Tipping the new inside ankle, rolling that knee (with femur rotation), and flexing that leg can drop the body and its weight over that new inside ski. But it doesn't have to involve this. If a skier does allow the weight to linger over this ski as it is rolled onto its new edge, that skier might want to angulate earlier than usual in order to direct pressures-to-be to the outside ski. Or enjoy the white pass turn.

But normally, as skiers learn to work the new inside ski first, they learn to lighten the weight over that ski as they tip it. This is something that is taught. They must release that old outside ski/new inside ski's secure hold on the snow. Just think of this as new-inside-leg down-weighting. Or as a release. The tipping happens, the body topples across the skis, and the outside ski passively tips alongside its twin, as @Steve mentioned, because the new outside ski is connected to the new inside ski via two legs and a pelvis, and all's right with the world.

 

[LiquidFeet]

.... Also, why is it “much more difficult to get the simultaneous entry by starting with the outside ski, since it's the one that does the heavy work of carrying the skier through the turn”? Why does this matter and what is the real consequence? Please explain this idea further.
....Steve you said: If you start with the left the rope goes slack and you get an A frame.
Explain to me why an A-frame is inherently bad? ....

I am not one of these people who thinks a sequential entry (with the inside ski tipping second, the accompanying A-frame, the inside ski being tipped less because of that A-frame, and the visible wedge entry which usually accompanies this movement pattern) is a sign that one is not skiing well. There are those who do think this, and build entire systems of skiing on eliminating the sequence entirely. These folks video themselves incessantly to confirm how well they are eliminating the barely-visible wedge entry. But that's not me. I'm not sure about what examiners PSIA think in certification exams, though.

The real reason I have embraced inside-ski-first thinking has to do with a lot of other stuff one does with that inside ski once it's considered an important player in every part of a turn. I'm not interested in starting thread drift right now so will leave this for another day.