Do you tip your ankle(s) inside your boots?

[LiquidFeet]

OK. Fair enough.

 

[markojp]

Loads of folks ski with opinions that aren't particularly effective. Then we can talk about skiing.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I posted this question in #63: This small ROM and the invisibility of ankle-tipping's role in rolling the knee is why so many people don't bother with the ankles. The question becomes, how much of an advantage does tipping the ankles give to those who do?

Some people have offered responses, but I'm not sure they answered the question as it was asked. I was wondering if anybody here could be specific as to why one should bother to tip ankles inside boots. I've come up with my list of reasons, drawn from my own experience. Here it is.

Here's a speedily-composed list of the benefits of ankle-tipping. The focus is on ankle tipping of both ankles, aka rolling the ankles, not on getting the new outside ski edged. I am assuming that the skier tips the new inside ankle first before the new outside ankle by at least a nanosecond.

1. Focus on tipping both ankles, with emphasis on the new inside foot first to keep it from being left behind, prevents sequential turn entry and that annoying inadvertent wedge. Instead, one gets a simultaneous turn entry with equal edge development for both skis ... and parallel shins.

2. This two-foot-two-ankle focus also prevents excess inside tip lead, which happens when one neglects to control the new inside foot. Since excess inside tip lead may result in back-seat entry to next turn, ankle-tipping helps the skier stay out of the back seat.

3. Maintaining that reduced inside tip lead allows the skier to additionally pull/hold the inside foot back, should the skier choose to do that. Inside foot pull-back helps to sharpen the turn.

4. Ankle-tipping prompts lower leg tipping before hip dropping. Lower leg tipping with a delayed hip-drop keeps the inside foot up under the body so one can make grippy short radius turns.

5. Lower leg tipping before hip dropping also prevents hip-dumping and/or related park-and-ride, both of which suppress quick responses to things unexpected.

6. Lower leg tipping before hip dropping also supports edging with sufficient platform angle, which is necessary for maintaining grip on hard snow.

7. Ankle-tipping with lower leg tipping happening before hip dropping allows one to start an arc-to-arc carved run by making sufficient platform angle for carving easy to attain.

Comments?

 

[geepers]

I'm not sure what move you're referring to...

Specifically where in the turn does the ankle tipping occur?

Also, that's a pretty sloppy turn, she was likely just warming up.

Maybe. Then again 38 WC podiums, 3 wins, 2 titles, 4 Olympic medals, couple of world titles... Those turns are better than ~99% of skiers will ever make. I'd love to be able to ski that sloppy.

In fact, all kinds of alignment artifacts are visible comparing these two stills...

May be better to compare with an image from this run. Seems a more equitable intent.

I'm interested in your comment on the big knee drive. What's the concern? I see similar things in other high performance skiers although it's hard to compare as tight/loose trousers or different leg shapes can alter perceptions.

It all starts there, Boots follow. But that where it starts.

Starts? As in the very 1st thing you do each and every turn?

I tend to agree with your other comment that we see too many skiers too far forward too long in the turn.

 

[geepers]

I posted this question in #63: This small ROM and the invisibility of ankle-tipping's role in rolling the knee is why so many people don't bother with the ankles. The question becomes, how much of an advantage does tipping the ankles give to those who do?

Some people have offered responses, but I'm not sure they answered the question as it was asked. I was wondering if anybody here could be specific as to why one should bother to tip ankles inside boots. I've come up with my list of reasons, drawn from my own experience. Here it is.

Here's a speedily-composed list of the benefits of ankle-tipping. The focus is on ankle tipping of both ankles, aka rolling the ankles, not on getting the new outside ski edged. I am assuming that the skier tips the new inside ankle first before the new outside ankle by at least a nanosecond.

1. Focus on tipping both ankles, with emphasis on the new inside foot first to keep it from being left behind, prevents sequential turn entry and that annoying inadvertent wedge. Instead, one gets a simultaneous turn entry with equal edge development for both skis ... and parallel shins.

2. This two-foot-two-ankle focus also prevents excess inside tip lead, which happens when one neglects to control the new inside foot. Since excess inside tip lead may result in back-seat entry to next turn, ankle-tipping helps the skier stay out of the back seat.

3. Maintaining that reduced inside tip lead allows the skier to additionally pull/hold the inside foot back, should the skier choose to do that. Inside foot pull-back helps to sharpen the turn.

4. Ankle-tipping prompts lower leg tipping before hip dropping. Lower leg tipping with a delayed hip-drop keeps the inside foot up under the body so one can make grippy short radius turns.

5. Lower leg tipping before hip dropping also prevents hip-dumping and/or related park-and-ride, both of which suppress quick responses to things unexpected.

6. Lower leg tipping before hip dropping also supports edging with sufficient platform angle, which is necessary for maintaining grip on hard snow.

7. Ankle-tipping with lower leg tipping happening before hip dropping allows one to start an arc-to-arc carved run by making sufficient platform angle for carving easy to attain.

Comments?

Item 2. Maybe a bigger issue is that excess tip lead results in being too far forward on the outside ski when completing the current turn.

Item 3. Care to elaborate on how "inside foot pull-back helps to sharpen the turn"? Want to understand the mechanism at work here.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@geepers, just try that inside foot pull-back when you get on snow. Slide off the chair, skis parallel, flat, and pointing straight ahead. Pull back (slide straight backwards) the ski on the side you want to turn towards, and do nothing else.

This experiment will clearly illustrate what inside foot pull-back does. I'm sure you'll be able to figure out the mechanics after experiencing the effect.

Or look up force couple and rotation if you want a written description.

 

[geepers]

@geepers, just try that inside foot pull-back when you get on snow. Slide off the chair, skis parallel, flat, and pointing straight ahead. Pull back (slide straight backwards) the ski on the side you want to turn towards, and do nothing else.

This experiment will clearly illustrate what inside foot pull-back does. I'm sure you'll be able to figure out the mechanics after experiencing the effect.

Or look up force couple and rotation if you want a written description.

Was thinking of the case of a pure carving turn where we don't want the skis to redirect other than through the ski design.

 

[razie]

May be better to compare with an image from this run. Seems a more equitable intent.

ok... since you let me pick the frame:

vs

I'd love to be able to ski that sloppy.

Most of my racers, like the one above, learned to ski better than me, but I'm not coaching FIS anymore... so... tough luck!

...and to be fair, none of my racers got any WC podium, you seem to imply that that's some kind of measuring stick for mortals! But I like to think that's their fault, not the coaches!



what's worse, none of my racers got @markojp 's points, which is a lot more annoying tbh... although, again of course, entirely their fault, not the coaching staff's (which staff instead kept podiuming at club races - and with that you get free beers, arguably better than a WC podium)

 

[geepers]

I posted this question in #63: This small ROM and the invisibility of ankle-tipping's role in rolling the knee is why so many people don't bother with the ankles. The question becomes, how much of an advantage does tipping the ankles give to those who do?

Some people have offered responses, but I'm not sure they answered the question as it was asked. I was wondering if anybody here could be specific as to why one should bother to tip ankles inside boots. I've come up with my list of reasons, drawn from my own experience. Here it is.

Here's a speedily-composed list of the benefits of ankle-tipping. The focus is on ankle tipping of both ankles, aka rolling the ankles, not on getting the new outside ski edged. I am assuming that the skier tips the new inside ankle first before the new outside ankle by at least a nanosecond.

1. Focus on tipping both ankles, with emphasis on the new inside foot first to keep it from being left behind, prevents sequential turn entry and that annoying inadvertent wedge. Instead, one gets a simultaneous turn entry with equal edge development for both skis ... and parallel shins.

2. This two-foot-two-ankle focus also prevents excess inside tip lead, which happens when one neglects to control the new inside foot. Since excess inside tip lead may result in back-seat entry to next turn, ankle-tipping helps the skier stay out of the back seat.

3. Maintaining that reduced inside tip lead allows the skier to additionally pull/hold the inside foot back, should the skier choose to do that. Inside foot pull-back helps to sharpen the turn.

4. Ankle-tipping prompts lower leg tipping before hip dropping. Lower leg tipping with a delayed hip-drop keeps the inside foot up under the body so one can make grippy short radius turns.

5. Lower leg tipping before hip dropping also prevents hip-dumping and/or related park-and-ride, both of which suppress quick responses to things unexpected.

6. Lower leg tipping before hip dropping also supports edging with sufficient platform angle, which is necessary for maintaining grip on hard snow.

7. Ankle-tipping with lower leg tipping happening before hip dropping allows one to start an arc-to-arc carved run by making sufficient platform angle for carving easy to attain.

Comments?

There's another important benefit to add.

Ankle tipping moves the center of pressure closer to the edge of the ski. Meaning less of the moment arm that attempts to flatten the ski in a turn.

 

[Loki1]

Sorry it has taken so long to reply to a couple of posts.

First I want to say that focusing on the ankle and the foot is a great focus and one that should be explored with your athletes/students, as well as yourself in your own skiing. As well as directing the focus to the ski edge and other external factors while performing. The science is pretty clear that external focuses are key when looking to improve skills while in performing activities.

Razie asked where my scientific proof was. Let's start with the video that we have both posted here, as well as on epicski, yes we have been talking about this for quite a while. It clearly states that in closed chain movements the movements are generated by the leg. It also states that closed chain refers to when the foot is contact with the ground. This is because the video is speaking of movements in gait, i.e. walking. A quick search also describes closed chain movements as those that occur when the movement of the foot is restricted; open chain when the foot is able to move "freely". I would have to say that that describes the situation in a ski boot pretty well. Wether weighted or not the movement of the foot is restricted. Thus closed chain movement. I definetly think there are movements that the boot allows that help use direct pressure to the inside of the foot, as well as balancing movements that happen. However the main movements happen in the leg and thus the femur/hip socket, depending on the angle of flexion at the knee. While the video is strong proof, I have brought this up with several PHD's as well as orthopedic surgeons and physical thereapists and they have all said the same thing. Movements come from the hip socket/femur. Although you will feel them in the ankle. They have also said the hip socket/femur shouldn't be the focus for the athlete, but you need to understand that is where it comes from. I would suggest speaking to any individuals with a scientific background in movement if you would like more clarification. This isn't just my opinion. So while those may agree to disagree, I think they are missing the bigger point. I am not saying these things to try to start an argument. I'm just trying to get people to understand the cause and effect relationship. This will allow use to understand better the role of the femur/pelvis in skiing. When I first started skiing the ankle was considered the "most" important joing in skiing. While we could make an argument that it still is, I think that current understanding would point to the hip as taking over that role.

Finally , why do I think this is so important? It is important because there are so many problems in skiing that we attribute to certain things, that would be solved simply by focusing on the alignment of the pelvis throughout the turn. Not a focus of the student but the coach/instructor. If we had a better understanding of what happens in the pelvis we could better coach/teach our athletes/students.

 

[Loki1]

Here's a speedily-composed list of the benefits of ankle-tipping. The focus is on ankle tipping of both ankles, aka rolling the ankles, not on getting the new outside ski edged. I am assuming that the skier tips the new inside ankle first before the new outside ankle by at least a nanosecond.

Just to clarify. This would cause sequential movements not simultaneous. Is that the goal?

 

[Chris V.]

Just to clarify. This would cause sequential movements not simultaneous. Is that the goal?

There are proponents of employing the O-frame, certainly as a training exercise to be done over and over, and to a lesser degree as a component of good every day skiing.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Just to clarify. This would cause sequential movements not simultaneous. Is that the goal?

No.

Ankle-tipping the new inside ankle first overwrites the human desire to edge the outside ski first since it does the heavy work. Focusing on the inside activity first causes the preferred simultaneous turn entry. Working with an inside foot/leg focus "clears" the new inside ski to make room for the outside ski to do its thing.

Too often instructional words focus on managing the outside ski/foot/leg and only ask the inside ski/foot/leg to "match" what the outside is doing. That way of thinking and talking and acting causes sequential turn entries with all the associated unpleasantries.

 

[François Pugh]

A cure for lazy inside leg is to try to tip the inside leg first of all in order to compensate for weaker muscles and years of bad habits. Be ware though. If you somehow learned to tip simultaneously through other means, trying to tip the inside ski first will result in tipping the inside leg first, and can affect disastrous results before the outside leg tips. This is a particular danger to folk who take instructions literally and are good at following them.

 

[LiquidFeet]

A cure for lazy inside leg is to try to tip the inside leg first of all in order to compensate for weaker muscles and years of bad habits. Be ware though. If you somehow learned to tip simultaneously through other means, trying to tip the inside ski first will result in tipping the inside leg first, and can affect disastrous results before the outside leg tips. This is a particular danger to folk who take instructions literally and are good at following them.

@François Pugh, that's an interesting point. You sound like you speak from experience. Have you had such disastrous results? What were they?

 

[François Pugh]

@LiquidFeet Nearly so. From a straight run down the fall line, tipped left ski to little toe edge without tipping right ski (as per instructions I read in a book), engaged left ski little toe edge, left ski attempted to trip me. I narrowly averted disaster due to super-human reflexes and much experience at recovering from previous results of poor judgement.

 

[Rod9301]

@LiquidFeet Nearly so. From a straight run down the fall line, tipped left ski to little toe edge without tipping right ski (as per instructions I read in a book), engaged left ski little toe edge, left ski attempted to trip me. I narrowly averted disaster due to super-human reflexes and much experience at recovering from previous results of poor judgement.

This is probably because you had to much weight on the new inside ski.

You are supposed to tip the new inside ski first, which gives the appearance of an o, knees apart.

 

[François Pugh]

@Rod9301 Only if you define too much weight as enough weight to allow the ski to interact with the snow; it is true that if I had lifted the ski off the snow (which was part of the recovery move), the edge would not have engaged. Be extra careful with making sure not too much weight is on the ski, most dangerous case for people like me who don't automatically make moves they aren't told to make when following instructions to the letter, imho, is not enough weight to decamber a cambered ski, but enough weight to allow that leading little toe edge to catch and send the ski to the other side.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@François Pugh, you got a white pass turn out of that misfire?

 

[François Pugh]

@François Pugh, you got a white pass turn out of that misfire?

No. in my case, the left ski went right. White pass turn might have happened if I would have had more weight on the ski.