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I am not sure that keeping the tip on the snow is really affecting anything objectively besides aesthetics. its not like I am pressing down on it.
If nothing else, it is distracting.
I am not sure that keeping the tip on the snow is really affecting anything objectively besides aesthetics. its not like I am pressing down on it.
This! And the idea that this fault afflicts only intermediate skiers is incorrect. It’s actually one of the most pervasive issues holding back skiers at high to expert levels and can be very subtle to detect.People who delay their COM from moving across their BOS will find this drill impossible, which is exactly the type of person who should be doing it.
What type of skier are you talking about? Someone with little weight on the outside ski? Like lower intermediate?
I'm guessing those who have lots of trouble- tail pushers.
2. Tend to allow the inside foot to get too far ahead (or the outside foot too far back however you wish to look at it) or overly separated. I've yet to see anyone put their outside ski back on the snow way behind them or way outside the line of the inside ski. However I have seen the same skiers do exactly that by the fall line with their 'normal' skiing. The drill shows them what correct inside foot placement feels like.
3. Tend to be too far forward, probably attempting to pressure the tips - they typically lose grip on the tails below the fall line. Again, the drill forces better fore/aft balance entering the turn.
1. Tend to move inside too soon, before any centripetal force is there to support them. So they have to stop that movement to avoid toppling far too much onto the inside ski and end up park n ride. The drill forces them to be patient with inclination moving inside only enough to balance centripetal forces (otherwise crash n burn) and then, with good engagement of the outside ski when it returns to the snow they can now balance on it and continue to move inside. Until it's time for the next turn.
I guess since one is balancing on one ski it's sort self limiting on TOO FAR inside
The ski lifting in the whitepass drill has lots of strange side effects. More the higher and further out the ski is lifted. I'm sort of thinking that most of the benefits of the whitepass drill can be had with just focusing on ending the turn by untipping and flexing the outside ski and focusing on not doing a early weight transfer.
This is a very good post. The idea of most people fretting about moving too far inside at the top of the turn is laughable. The very large majority of skiers have piddling edge angles-how far inside one can move is driven by that unless one falls over! Similarly it’s baffling to hear instructors concerned about being too far forward when the majority of them could cut off the tips of their skis and not notice.Hi, geepers. Agree that the whitepass is an excellent drill for skiers who:
I'm a prime suspect here
But not so sure I understand your first point.
In a whitepass drill one is quite far inside on the top of the turn. I guess since one is balancing on one ski it's sort self limiting on TOO FAR inside but one can be QUITE FAR inside. I would think the other drill, "up-and-over", discussed in this thread would be better for developing patience in moving inside the new turn and doing it "in balance". That drill is often prescribed with gliding on the little toe edge for a good stretch before moving into the new turn. But I sort of feel that to be able to "glide on the little toe edge for a good stretch before moving into the new turn" one has to loose angulation and separation in the last part of the turn where as on the white pass one is forced to keep angulation and separation going through the very end of the turn. But I like "up-and-over"-drill and early transfer skiing (doesn't have to be up) for the patience at the top of the turn feeling. Neither is a way to ski and I guess one drill can't do it all...
The ski lifting in the whitepass drill has lots of strange side effects. More the higher and further out the ski is lifted. I'm sort of thinking that most of the benefits of the whitepass drill can be had with just focusing on ending the turn by untipping and flexing the outside ski and focusing on not doing a early weight transfer.
Hmmm.... I think I move inside too quickly. Especially when attempting to do late transfer (ala WP) on long radius skis (proper GS) after skiing long on short radius skis. Feel like late transfer move the body quickly into the turn (regulated by the DIRT of the release) and I need better and earlier tipping and counterbalancing to be able to pull that off without loosing balance to the inside. If able to pull off moving inside quickly then I agree it's a good thing.The idea of most people fretting about moving too far inside at the top of the turn is laughable.
This is a very good post. The idea of most people fretting about moving too far inside at the top of the turn is laughable. The very large majority of skiers have piddling edge angles-how far inside one can move is driven by that unless one falls over! Similarly it’s baffling to hear instructors concerned about being too far forward when the majority of them could cut off the tips of their skis and not notice.
Josh, thanks for taking the time and effort to post, however I'm not sure what this is but it's not White Pass as I've been taught.
How about lifting the entire ski in the air and keeping it there until the fall line. Then building outside ski performance through the later part of the turn.
BTW I agree that once a skier has the hang of them, WP turns are not especially difficult to perform and don't take any big toll on body/strength. Not that difficult to ski many of them in a row - as long as not too many obstacles! (Unlike, say, speiss which I find exhausting.)
Personally, as a general comment on where the thread has gone, I don't think White Pass turns are primarily about transition. Note in Guy Hetherington's vid he states it is an advanced drill and skiers should be able to do his other one ski drill - which already requires the skier to get their CoM over the ski - before attempting. For me where it relates to transition is in the exact opposite - it forces patience on skiers who tend to be too quick to get their CoM well over the BoS and too far inside.
The focus on transition also underplays the drill's use in developing additional ski performance as a result of having to be correctly balanced (fore/aft and laterally) into the fall line.
I think you were skiing with @utskier that day? He told me he does this drill quite well. Maybe I can get some fresh video of the two of you doing this and other drills sometime soon.Here are mine from five or six years ago. If I were to video again as a demo I would try to have a little less shoulder tipping at initiation as well as having the ski tip a little higher.
@Steve, my description of a tracer turn goes like this. Pick one ski, right or left. Ski with 99.99% of your weight and balance on that ski with the other just barely touching or tracing the snow. Make a series of turns like this then switch to the other foot/leg and repeat.
I don’t really see your gif man as moving inside too quickly. Could just be the angle we’re seeing. Look at the Hetherington wp vid. Looks like he moves further in and directly - quicker at transition. It’s also a continuous movement. I’d say Hetherington moves in quicker than the gifster.I'm delighted to hear that you do not have this problem of moving inside too soon. Personally I've struggled with it ever since I learnt it was a "thing". Always be moving in or moving out they said. Which is pretty much necessary if the BoS is going to be taking the outside lane, compared to the CoM. My demon, one which I've seen in many other reasonably ok skiers, is that moving inside too soon causes us to have a little too much weight on the inside ski leading to a pause in the movement inside. Next thing the turn is over, it's time to be moving out for the next turn. And our skiing was another fine example of indifferent performance.
Like this - skiing ok, has a tendency use up limited lateral movement very early in the turn and then hold that position.
Now doubtless there's a range of drills that may be useful - I feel the WP turn, as demo-ed by Guy Hetherington, would be one of them. Note how he continues to shorten the inside leg and increase ski performance through the turn.
And note Hetherington's comments at 1:42 "This is one of the most effective drills for high speed carving because it forces you to be patient as your body is moved across the skis in the direction of the new turn. It also allows the skis to establish clean grip which sets you up well to increase edge angle through the end."
I'm all ears and eyes for other drill suggestions.
Statuesque
I don’t really see your gif man as moving inside too quickly. Could just be the angle we’re seeing. Look at the Hetherington wp vid. Looks like he moves further in and directly - quicker at transition. It’s also a continuous movement. I’d say Hetherington moves in quicker than the gifster.
Problem is gif man is pretty good but seems he’s in love with how he feels in that posed countered position mid turn. Statuesque. There’d have to be lots of motivation to change.
He goes up first. Part of that is he gets to transition and then needs to make an abrupt move to start the new turn. There’s not a com flow into the new turn that starts earlier and carries him through transition. WPass could help because you have to move over that downhill ski into the new turn. A sudden move or up move doesn’t work.
I don’t really see your gif man as moving inside too quickly. Could just be the angle we’re seeing. Look at the Hetherington wp vid. Looks like he moves further in and directly - quicker at transition. It’s also a continuous movement. I’d say Hetherington moves in quicker than the gifster.
Problem is gif man is pretty good but seems he’s in love with how he feels in that posed countered position mid turn. Statuesque. There’d have to be lots of motivation to change.
He goes up first. Part of that is he gets to transition and then needs to make an abrupt move to start the new turn. There’s not a com flow into the new turn that starts earlier and carries him through transition. WPass could help because you have to move over that downhill ski into the new turn. A sudden move or up move doesn’t work.