White pass (Norwegian) turn vs. Ligety race turn

[LiquidFeet]

Bingo! IMO the essential element of the drill is that it forces the skier to allow his COM to move smoothly over the old outside ski into the new turn. Many skiers get stuck with their COMs uphill, sometimes quite subtly, and then have to extend in order to huck their bodies across. Tracer turns, which I prefer, achieves the same thing.

Agree.
People who are stuck uphill at the end of the turn are not going to be able to do White Pass turns. It's too much of a stretch. There are far more accessible drills to help them move across their skis.

 

[JESinstr]

Ok so let's keep this going.
Assuming we are talking turns here...ie circular travel via carving or "Brushed" carve, what do we mean by stuck up hill and what might be causing that condition?

 

[razie]

@razie, I don't know what you mean when you say you ski on all 4 edges.

Just that I glide on one ski often, on either edge. Of course because being shaped, the ski turns slightly, even on the "wrong" edge, which is why you have to lean in a bit to balance, if you are to glide on it for any amount of time.

When you add some momentum across the ski, as in turning, things should change. When you get enough float to stop gliding, that when things get interesting... and the execution should adapt to the performance, which is missing in most videos above.

I know that some mistake performance for being "vaulted" over the long leg into the new turn(and maybe that is the core of the issue) but that's a different discussion altogether...

P.S. I also use all release types all the time, as needed, so that could also mean that I'm using all 4 edges... but at that point I meant it as a practice/drill.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Ok so let's keep this going.
Assuming we are talking turns here...ie circular travel via carving or "Brushed" carve, what do we mean by stuck up hill and what might be causing that condition?

Both feet are downhill of the body at turn finish, with body bracing against the uphill edges.
Fear causes skiers to do this at first, then habit perpetuates it.
But you know this.
What is your question getting at?

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Bingo! IMO the essential element of the drill is that it forces the skier to allow his COM to move smoothly over the old outside ski into the new turn. Many skiers get stuck with their COMs uphill, sometimes quite subtly, and then have to extend in order to huck their bodies across. Tracer turns, which I prefer, achieves the same thing.

I use tracer turns as the gateway drug for people that are having a really hard time doing a White Pass turn.

 

[razie]

Agree.
People who are stuck uphill at the end of the turn are not going to be able to do White Pass turns. It's too much of a stretch. There are far more accessible drills to help them move across their skis.

I disagree to some extent. As proven in most videos above, they still extend and hop over, albeit stay on the same leg. It doesn't seem to stop that....

 

[Steve]

Why aren't you skiing? Oh wait, neither am I!

What is a tracer turn?

 

[LiquidFeet]

I disagree to some extent. As proven in most videos above, they still extend and hop over, albeit stay on the same leg. It doesn't seem to stop that....

@razie, what? I thought these comments that I responded to were about intermediate skiers being stuck uphill of their skis at the end of their turns ... intermediate skiers who are indeed doing some things they need to replace in a major way. Have you ever tried to get one of these intermediate adults who are bracing and braking their turns to do any version of a White Pass turn? They LOVE their uphill edges and cling to them with determination as long as they can. Unweighting and pivoting flattened skis usually follows, with new edges found only after the skis point in the new direction, braking again. I don't think we have any videos of such skiers posted yet in this thread.

Getting such a skier onto downhill edges of both skis at the top of the turn should be the path of improvement, not getting them onto one ski on its downhill edge - when that edge is the little toe edge. Talk about a challenge!

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Why aren't you skiing? Oh wait, neither am I!

What is a tracer turn?

Just got back.

 

[razie]

Oh, maybe I misunderstood what it meant. I thought he meant that they can't release and hop over.

If they're braking and bracing - that may be a product of many things - gotta first figure out what the cause is - likely part of it is skiing too steep for the skill level etc. They likely have no business skiing where they're skiing, they'll get hurt soon enough...

But are you saying that you *would* get them to do WP or that it's too much for them? I would think that it's too much for them - they won't learn calligraphy while being chased by a big bad wolf or something ...

 

[LiquidFeet]

Razie, yup we are now in agreement on that point.

 

[HardDaysNight]

I thought these comments that I responded to were about intermediate skiers being stuck uphill of their skis at the end of their turns ...

Certainly there are lots of those...The problem is not confined to braking, bracing intermediates however. Many very skilled skiers fail to allow the COM to begin the migration across the outside ski early enough and end up finishing their turns “too late”, which results in an inability to develop high edge angles at the top of the next turn and therefore the pressure occurs well below the fall line (of necessity otherwise the turn has too little shape) and the cycle repeats. Such skiers, including plenty of instructors, invariably have difficulty with WP.

 

[JESinstr]

Agree.
People who are stuck uphill at the end of the turn are not going to be able to do White Pass turns. It's too much of a stretch. There are far more accessible drills to help them move across their skis.

Ok so let's keep this going.
Assuming we are talking turns here...ie circular travel via carving or "Brushed" carve, what do we mean by stuck up hill and what might be causing that condition?

Both feet are downhill of the body at turn finish, with body bracing against the uphill edges.
Fear causes skiers to do this at first, then habit perpetuates it.
But you know this.
What is your question getting at?

LF I must have misunderstood your initial statement. HardDaysNight was talking about the com being uphill and I conditioned my question to assume skiers that could either carve or do brushed carved turns. You are right however, the heel pushing, body bracing crowd are in trouble when it comes to this type of drill. But that is the least of their problems IMO.

But past the fall line, even a carving skier has both feet down hill yes? So how can they get stuck? IMO leaning the upper body (banking) to attain high edge angles may be a major cause.

From the cup half filled perspective, poor angulation skills leading to little or no lateral separation, places the upper mass in a very poor inclined position. It inhibits the upper mass from moving effectively with the skis at release because it has to first address the return to a vertical alignment with gravity. This makes getting to the "whitepass" edge a considerable task.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[markojp]

I use tracer turns as the gateway drug for people that are having a really hard time doing a White Pass turn.

I do/show a variation of tracer turns... start with the traditional tracer, then do the next set with the back of the ski lifted off the snow BUT NOW with the new inside ski contacting the snow (with both feet tipping commensurately) from shovel to binding toe piece. A lot of folks muddle through tracer turns in the back seat and don't really correctly link a set together. The BUT NOW bit, people are usually shocked at the difference and the little 'ahah!' moment that comes when understanding pressuring the fore body of the inside ski while standing on and moving with the outside ski.. . the latter being an unconscious resultant.... until it isn't.

 

[Josh Matta]

So I honestly find these mindless easy on moderate terrain while carving. I plan to get some video of that, where they are much more challenging is when going slow and on flat terrain, so that where I decided to video them first. I honestly do not think or care about if its being done with extension or flexion because IMO this drill is all about COM movement over a more finicky BOS being you little toe edge or little toe biased flat ski. People who delay their COM from moving across their BOS will find this drill impossible, which is exactly the type of person who should be doing it.

I am curious what other ways you guys would like to see this done? I plan to ski with @Erik Timmerman sometime this week to do some filming.

 

[Steve]

Very nice Josh, you make it look so casual. Thanks for the post.

 

[geepers]

So I honestly find these mindless easy on moderate terrain while carving. I plan to get some video of that, where they are much more challenging is when going slow and on flat terrain, so that where I decided to video them first. I honestly do not think or care about if its being done with extension or flexion because IMO this drill is all about COM movement over a more finicky BOS being you little toe edge or little toe biased flat ski. People who delay their COM from moving across their BOS will find this drill impossible, which is exactly the type of person who should be doing it.

I am curious what other ways you guys would like to see this done? I plan to ski with @Erik Timmerman sometime this week to do some filming.

Josh, thanks for taking the time and effort to post, however I'm not sure what this is but it's not White Pass as I've been taught.

How about lifting the entire ski in the air and keeping it there until the fall line. Then building outside ski performance through the later part of the turn.

BTW I agree that once a skier has the hang of them, WP turns are not especially difficult to perform and don't take any big toll on body/strength. Not that difficult to ski many of them in a row - as long as not too many obstacles! (Unlike, say, speiss which I find exhausting.)

Personally, as a general comment on where the thread has gone, I don't think White Pass turns are primarily about transition. Note in Guy Hetherington's vid he states it is an advanced drill and skiers should be able to do his other one ski drill - which already requires the skier to get their CoM over the ski - before attempting. For me where it relates to transition is in the exact opposite - it forces patience on skiers who tend to be too quick to get their CoM well over the BoS and too far inside.

The focus on transition also underplays the drill's use in developing additional ski performance as a result of having to be correctly balanced (fore/aft and laterally) into the fall line.

 

[James]

For me where it relates to transition is in the exact opposite - it forces patience on skiers who tend to be too quick to get their CoM well over the BoS and too far inside.

What type of skier are you talking about? Someone with little weight on the outside ski? Like lower intermediate?

I'm guessing those who have lots of trouble- tail pushers.

 

[Josh Matta]

to me white pass is any transition where you finish on your old outisde ski and start on the new inside ski........regardless of any speed/steepness/dynamics
I am not sure that keeping the tip on the snow is really affecting anything objectively besides aesthetics. its not like I am pressing down on it.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Personally, as a general comment on where the thread has gone, I don't think White Pass turns are primarily about transition. Note in Guy Hetherington's vid he states it is an advanced drill and skiers should be able to do his other one ski drill - which already requires the skier to get their CoM over the ski - before attempting. For me where it relates to transition is in the exact opposite - it forces patience on skiers who tend to be too quick to get their CoM well over the BoS and too far inside.

I agree with this, a great use of this drill is to try and fight the hip dump. You can't just throw yourself across the skis and end up balancing on the LTE. If you hip dump you really will dump onto your hip.