White pass (Norwegian) turn vs. Ligety race turn

[Mike-AT]

For the upcoming season I wanted to focus on the White pass turn to improve my carving skills and to work on my balance. I like the fluid style in this video a lot:


Now I stumbled upon this (old) video of Ligety's technique, and he seems to do exactly the opposite of the above.

Ted Ligety has practically invented a new way of skiing

No skier in the world carves turns the way Ted Ligety does. The American has practically invented a new way of skiing.

www.nytimes.com

It is explained in step 3: He seems to unweight the outside ski already before the transition, finishing the turn on the old inside ski, rolls it over to the BTE and then places down the new inside ski. In contrast to the White pass turn where you change edges (and balance) on your old outside ski and only later put down the new outside ski.

I realize one is a drill, the other racing technique. I still wonder what are the benefits of the respective turn, and what could an advanced skier take out of it, comparing say to the typical unweight-and-simultaneous-edge-change?

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Mike-AT, I'll respond assuming that doing White Pass turns is a worthy enterprise,
without engaging in a discussion of why anyone would want to do them.
That discussion can get interesting, since White Pass turns do not use the same mechanics as do normal turns.

So, have you started working on White Pass turns yet?
If yes, how's it going? Have you gotten any success in doing it the way that Bobby is doing it?
What is working and what is not?

 

[James]

They're not mutually exclusive. WP gets you to move into the new turn. You can use nearly the same movement with the Ligety turn.

 

[Scruffy]

I've never seen a White Pass with that Javelin turn mash-up.

 

[razie]

There are several sequences in releasing the skis and transferring weight. Those are two of them, each with its own effects on one's skiing - tactical choices. They are both used in GS and all skiing. I believe Von Grunigen made the first one famous (weighted release) from the white pass turn, although I see that the PSIA website credits Steve Mahre as the source... it keeps the ski carving late so maybe it was more popular with straight skis? The "step" tactic was also very popular back when, and it's related to this release.

 

[Rod9301]

There are several sequences in releasing the skis and transferring weight. Those are two of them, each with its own effects on one's skiing - tactical choices. They are both used in GS and all skiing. I believe Von Grunigen made the first one famous (weighted release) from the white pass turn, although I see that the PSIA website credits Steve Mahre as the source... it keeps the ski carving late so maybe it was more popular with straight skis? The "step" tactic was also very popular back when, and it's related to this release.

Thé weighted release is very useful, especially when you have to change edges very quickly.
The thing is that you have to be able to shift the balance to the outside ski at will, any time.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I don’t really love that White Pass demo. I’d like it better if he brought the lifted ski to the ground by leveling his body instead of by lengthening or dropping his leg. Then he probably wouldn’t look so a-framed and backseat in the second half of the turn. As far as I am concerned, the focus on leveling should be a big part of the drill.

 

[razie]

Yeah, he was maybe exaggerating for effect...? He's also lifting it very early - I guess that's not necessarily bad, but it doesn't emphasize working on the release? It is beter than this one, as at least he's emphasizing cross-under, while the one below emphasizes extending before the edge change... which is not a release, strictly-speaking... good drill, but not a release...

 

[James]

I see White Pass as about edge change. The release is directly into the new turn. Same for the Ligety turn, if that's what we're calling it.

 

[Loki1]

Yeah, he was maybe exaggerating for effect...? He's also lifting it very early - I guess that's not necessarily bad, but it doesn't emphasize working on the release? It is beter than this one, as at least he's emphasizing cross-under, while the one below emphasizes extending before the edge change... which is not a release, strictly-speaking... good drill, but not a release...

So what exactly is a release?

 

[Loki1]

I see White Pass as about edge change. The release is directly into the new turn. Same for the Ligety turn, if that's what we're calling it.

Aren’t all releases directly into the new turn? If they weren’t, I don’t think it would really be a release. Would it?

 

[Loki1]

I would ask, what is the most important thing to happen during the release or transition phase. What exactly is the goal during this phase? I think by looking at this question we can gain a better understanding of what we want to happen and how what we do facilitates that outcome.

 

[LiquidFeet]

There are multiple ways to start a White Pass turn.... some of them not so pretty, others admirable. Watch the hips. Are they tilting into the turn? Do you care?

at 0.56:

 

[razie]

There are multiple ways to start a White Pass turn.... some of them not so pretty, others admirable. Watch the hips. Are they tilting into the turn? Do you care?

Good collection - this one's not bad - he's rolling off the edges, extending into the new turn...


I'll try to film one this weekend - I'm curious to see my self do it

 

[Mike-AT]

@Mike-AT, I'll respond assuming that doing White Pass turns is a worthy enterprise,
without engaging in a discussion of why anyone would want to do them.
That discussion can get interesting, since White Pass turns do not use the same mechanics as do normal turns.

Yeah, that's exactly the discussion that I wanted to have!

I see White Pass as about edge change. The release is directly into the new turn. Same for the Ligety turn, if that's what we're calling it.

Yes and no: Yes in a way that in both type of turns the edge change happens on the (weighted?) ski vs. the other one lifted from the snow. However white pass is turning on the old outside/new inside ski, vs. Ligety seems to shift weight early on to the old inside ski, changes from LTE to BTE so old inside becomes new outside ski.

Aren’t all releases directly into the new turn? If they weren’t, I don’t think it would really be a release. Would it?

I still need to learn a lot, so correct me if I'm wrong: Usually we speak of a release when we remove weight/pressure from the ski (edges), either by flexing or extending. In this "weightless" transition the edge change happens. In the White pass turn - and also it seems in the Ligety turn? - you see the weighted release (also mentioned earlier here), so that you have an edge change on a weighted ski. The difference in my eyes between WPT and Ligety style is the weighted ski: old outside ski vs. old inside ski.

 

[James]

There's at least a couple white pass turns in every gs race. Intentional or unintentional.

 

[Chris V.]

That's quite a collection. I like the method described by Mikaela best--avoiding tipping the hips into the turn. If White Pass turns are done just by strong banking, I don't know if they teach anything positive.

 

[razie]

Like James said - it's fairly common.

Both release and transition sequences are very useful in certain conditions, both racing and all mountain skiing. It's often the terrain throws me off or I have to keep the turn going a little more and I end up doing it even without planning it, to change the timing.

 

[LiquidFeet]

That's quite a collection. I like the method described by Mikaela best--avoiding tipping the hips into the turn. If White Pass turns are done just by strong banking, I don't know if they teach anything positive.

^^This. However, the value of learning "torture drills" is not always obvious. Versatility rocks.

That said, as a current learner of White Pass turns I can report that banking is certainly the easiest way to do them. Well, for me anyway.

For the "strong banking" way of doing these, lean waaaay waaaay over, reach out your inside hand as if you are trying to touch the snow to help you get that banking strong enough to hold onto that little toe edge, and your White Pass "Lean" will be golden. It will indeed be a lean.

However, not doing them that way is optimal. Holding onto level hips and an appropriate amount of counter is difficult while balancing on the little toe edge. Double pole drag helps. One might want to not wave that lifted foot around, up there in the air, like we see in some in those videos.

 

[razie]

If you want to get pedantic and precise on the releases (and thus transitions) - while the USSA does look at some them (and I use their - I guess you can call it " a definition" as to what constitutes a "release" - which is about kinetic chain activation), these are not really well understood or catalogued in many places - ... but here is what I have on them, after a lot of study and research, in terms of cataloguing the releases:
- Norwegian, I sometimes call it "late release" or "late transfer", also called "weighted release" it's related to the "COM release"
- Ted's, I sometimes call it the "early release" or "early transfer" also called "one-footed release", is the more common at the higher level of performance.
- Normal flexing release also called "two-footed"

Hopping off of the ski, or what some would call "the up-unweighting" or "extend to release" is not really a release... but a way too common way to end the turn, for sure.

It would be really nice to see our national organizations really try to start understanding skiing more deeply, but they much too often mistake the forest for the trees... and really, often, don't understand much of what's going on... and resort to blunt instruments like "use all joints" or "manage pressure" (and then train "versatility")... which, unlike simple biomechanics, are open to soo much interpretation and misunderstanding...