White pass (Norwegian) turn vs. Ligety race turn

[HardDaysNight]

In line with the idea that drills are intended to allow the skier to develop a feel that’s lacking in his/her skiing it’s worth asking what White Pass Leans achieve (when used as a drill as opposed to happening in the heat of a competitive run). Why is @LiquidFeet doing this “torture drill”? What does she expect it will change in her regular skiing?

 

[razie]

Interestingly - so I just read the PSIA description of the drill more carefully and, like I said, most of the above are not doing it right even by PSIA standards, because they extend before edge change :

Entering transition, flex the joints of the weighted leg to allow that foot’s tipping/rolling movements to release and change the ski’s edge

So much misunderstanding of the basics even by pros - it just makes my point...

 

[geepers]

In line with the idea that drills are intended to allow the skier to develop a feel that’s lacking in his/her skiing it’s worth asking what White Pass Leans achieve (when used as a drill as opposed to happening in the heat of a competitive run). Why is @LiquidFeet doing this “torture drill”? What does she expect it will change in her regular skiing?

I've found Whitepass turns to be a very useful drill for improved carving performance.

As Guy Hetherington notes in the All Tracks vid (posted by LF above) it forces us to be patient with our inclination at the start of turn and then allows the new outside ski to establish clean grip to increase edge angle through the end.

Seems to me that the clean grip is due to the necessity to maintain good fore/aft and lateral balance above the fall line and then to have the correct inside foot placement when that outside ski re-engages with the snow. From that point I find I'm in position to continue to retract the inside leg to move inside the turn whilst staying strongly balanced on the outside ski. For me the feel is of increasing the performance through the turn (rather than park n ride). That feeling comes whether the new inside ski is released by banking or as described by Shiffron. (The latter may be the preferred way however it is necessary to start somewhere.) I find it very useful to begin a pitch with some Whitepass turns and then transfer those same feelings into normal skiing.

So my take is that it is a useful drill for anyone who is: moving inside too quickly; too forward above the fall line; or who has issues with inside foot placement.

 

[LiquidFeet]

In line with the idea that drills are intended to allow the skier to develop a feel that’s lacking in his/her skiing it’s worth asking what White Pass Leans achieve (when used as a drill as opposed to happening in the heat of a competitive run). Why is @LiquidFeet doing this “torture drill”? What does she expect it will change in her regular skiing?

Hey there, HardDaysNight. I am doing white pass turns in preparation for my next certification exam, oh wait, assessment. It isn't going to "ruin" my skiing, or infect my regular turns. It's an isolation drill. It relates to one ski skiing. Figuring out how to do it has required me to do all kinds of evaluations of where my feet are relative to my CoM, where my weight is on the ski, how my lateral boot alignment work impacts all this, how my fore-aft boot alignment (also a work in progress, see all of those posts by Noodler) affects ski engagement, and how working the platform angle can be done while balanced on the little toe edge should I want a skidded turn instead of a carved one. All this is a work in progress (for me). In a certification exam, it shows whether the candidate has taken the exam seriously enough to prepare properly. I don't expect it to alter my personal skiing one whit, unless I'm needing a recovery move.

I'm hoping my observations can add something of value to the conversation.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Hey there, HardDaysNight. I am doing white pass turns in preparation for my next certification exam, oh wait, assessment. It isn't going to "ruin" my skiing, or infect my regular turns. It's an isolation drill. It relates to one ski skiing. Figuring out how to do it has required me to do all kinds of evaluations of where my feet are relative to my CoM, where my weight is on the ski, how my lateral boot alignment work impacts all this, how my fore-aft boot alignment (also a work in progress, see all of those posts by Noodler) affects ski engagement, and how working the platform angle can be done while balanced on the little toe edge should I want a skidded turn instead of a carved one. All this is a work in progress (for me). In a certification exam, it shows whether the candidate has taken the exam seriously enough to prepare properly. I don't expect it to alter my personal skiing one whit, unless I'm needing a recovery move.

I'm hoping my observations can add something of value to the conversation.

Wow, it seems like you listed several things you had to explore to be able to do a White Pass turn. My guess is that all of those things may alter your personal skiing.

 

[JESinstr]

Just an observation relative to one's BOS. I think we all agree that our BOS is established by the back side of the balls of the foot and the front side of the heel leading to the sweet spot being through the arch. I don't know about you but I am able to feel my arch much more when my mass is aligned with the inside of my foot (on edge) where the arch is more pronounced.

A good way to improve my "Envelope of Balance" would be to practice a drill that emphasises directing my BOS to the outside of the foot where the arch is less and therefore harder to sense the sweet spot.

At a minimum, this Drill seems to be a good one for working on that

 

[razie]

So here is what I mustered today, a deep flex version, to release while weighted - the snow was challenging and it's very early season - my balance needs a lot of work. It's not the easiest thing I've done so far this season, tbh


One thing is that it's hard to lift the inside foot meaningfully, as you're already flexed a lot and with the soft snow... you have to look at it closely to see that it's not weighted, I guess. If I remember to, I'll take some mid-season on a good snow day.

p.s.
In terms of technique - it's harder to lift the inside hip in the early part of the new turn, since you're keeping it engaged, so an early look of "inclination" is harder to avoid...

 

[LiquidFeet]

Wow, it seems like you listed several things you had to explore to be able to do a White Pass turn. My guess is that all of those things may alter your personal skiing.

I think of those things all the time when balancing mostly on the outside ski during regular ski turns. When the base of support is only the little toe edge of the inside ski, everything feels out of whack because staying balanced requires different relationships between body parts. I stand by what I said. If I change my mind, I'll post an explanation in this thread.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Erik Timmerman, do you remember when you asked me to try doing a sideslip down the fall line on the little toe edge of one ski and I couldn't do it? Got it now, good to go on each foot. Thanks for that.

 

[James]

Why do we use the term weighted release? Seems all releases are weighted, if not weighted it’s already been released.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

So here is what I mustered today, a deep flex version, to release while weighted - the snow was challenging and it's very early season - my balance needs a lot of work. It's not the easiest thing I've done so far this season, tbh


One thing is that it's hard to lift the inside foot meaningfully, as you're already flexed a lot and with the soft snow... you have to look at it closely to see that it's not weighted, I guess. If I remember to, I'll take some mid-season on a good snow day.

p.s.
In terms of technique - it's harder to lift the inside hip in the early part of the new turn, since you're keeping it engaged, so an early look of "inclination" is harder to avoid...

Awww... we only get one turn? Why not try it a couple different ways. Don't restrict yourself to flexed, try inclining at the start of the turn.

Looks like it'll be slow at the mountain tomorrow, maybe Josh and I can do a few. It will probably be totally obscured by the snow-making cloud, so shouldn't be too embarrassing..

 

[markojp]

FWIW, first day lift served today. I did some WP turns to really slow down the transition and focus traveling with the ski, then as I reach the fall line, I place the new outside ski on the snow by leveling my pelvis to align my core correctly. I try to do this as accurately and fluidly as possible. You can also play with where you place the outside ski in transition: above, at or below the fall line. It's a great drill for feeling where I need to be to move over the old outside ski.

 

[razie]

Why not try it a couple different ways. Don't restrict yourself to flexed, try inclining at the start of the turn.

I ski on all 4 edges fairly often, on most flats etc, but I don't really see a big point in drilling it like that... extended and inclined is not a challenge - I know it works but doesn't really teach anything specific (some skills of course and balance and use all edges, an inability to pivot the initiation etc). Doing it with some flexion is more useful in everyday skiing

As you noticed, even the PSIA description is looking for some flexion, in order to release....

 

[razie]

Why do we use the term weighted release? Seems all releases are weighted, if not weighted it’s already been released.

Not quite - you're normally unweighting to release and through transition - in this one you're maintaining some weight in that ski on purpose, to delay and slow things down.

We could also catalogue them based on foot use: outside foot, inside foot, both feet (normal) or no feet (strong retraction).

The inside foot one, the one foot or Ted - it's not really weighted because that inside leg is very flexed at that point, it is engaged briefly but not really weighted before the edge change.

The other way is to look at the release-transfer-engage sequence, which is different in each.

 

[Chris V.]

Why do we use the term weighted release? Seems all releases are weighted, if not weighted it’s already been released.

It's a P**S term. That acronym gets scrubbed if I use it. "Weighted release" as in the old outside ski was doing most of the work in the previous turn, and in this form of release we keep the weight on it through the release.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Why do we use the term weighted release? Seems all releases are weighted, if not weighted it’s already been released.

Yes, it's a P**S term as Chris V says. In a "weighted release," the sequence is Release, Engage, Transfer. In other types of transitions, the sequence is Release, Transfer, Engage. RET vs RTE. The differences matter in that teaching system, so learning each transition by itself, different from the others, is important. The term is a significant part of another system of skill-building, that's all.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Just watching Marta Bassino's GS run as I read this thread. I glanced up as she was coming over the pitch and I see inclination to the fall line, angulation after. Not sure what that has to do with 4 edges. Oh, update, same with Vlhova.

 

[razie]

Just watching Marta Bassino's GS run as I read this thread. I glanced up as she was coming over the pitch and I see inclination to the fall line, angulation after. Not sure what that has to do with 4 edges. Oh, update, same with Vlhova.

Hmm, so I wont win it next year, if I don't keep practicing it that way!! Oh, well.

What it has to do with skiing on 4 edges? Think it through : how do you sustain a glide on the inside edge of the inside ski? Weighting a deeply flexed leg that is extending while angulated over the other ski?? Or standing on a stacked leg and leaning in to balance over it? But that is about gliding, not turning... that's my point -skiing on one ski is important, for sure.

I didn't say that I am against the WP turns, just that they need to be demonstrated correctly, especially in official videos... and that in real life, if you ski with flexion, doing it that way is more relevant... they are more about the clean edge change than turning...

 

[LiquidFeet]

I ski on all 4 edges fairly often, on most flats etc, but I don't really see a big point in drilling it like that... extended and inclined is not a challenge - I know it works but doesn't really teach anything specific (some skills of course and balance and use all edges, an inability to pivot the initiation etc). Doing it with some flexion is more useful in everyday skiing.....

@razie, I don't know what you mean when you say you ski on all 4 edges.
--Is it simply that you have some weight (60-40? 50-50? 90-10?) on the inside ski during most turns, meaning you are using two left edges in one turn and two right edges in the next, meaning all four edges are getting used in every pair of turns?
--Or is it that you run a flat ski on the flats (skiing on top of hard snow), so all four edges are at least touching the snow as you glide along?
--Using all 4 edges at the same time is kinda hard to imagine ....

 

[HardDaysNight]

It's a great drill for feeling where I need to be to move over the old outside ski.

Bingo! IMO the essential element of the drill is that it forces the skier to allow his COM to move smoothly over the old outside ski into the new turn. Many skiers get stuck with their COMs uphill, sometimes quite subtly, and then have to extend in order to huck their bodies across. Tracer turns, which I prefer, achieves the same thing.