What does "ski the slow line fast" mean?

[Superbman]

The slow line fast always made more sense to me in bumps, or as a strategy for bumps. It's the round line around each bump where directional choice controls speed vs. the fall line/ zipper line between the bumps (fast line, which can also be skied fast or slow).

Best example of slow line/ fast line skied slow and fast in bumps, and what each entails is this video by Blake Saunders, that made the rounds on some there forums a year or so ago:


He prejudices skiing the fast line fast, but does a nice reverse progression to show the range from fast line fast to slow line fast (with examples of fast line slow in between). I've always liked coupling these concepts with Bob Barnes Offensive and Defensive skiing, especially as applied to speed control: Slow line fast is offensive (direction as the key component to slow down), fast line slow is at opposite end of the spectrum as defensive (with friction or braking as the main method of slowing down).

 

[Chris Geib]

From the posts above, it sounds like "skiing the slow line fast" means skiing faster is the preferred outcome of skill-building. Is that what people mean?

It's not what I mean, but might have been the conclusion from what I've written I suppose.

I don't believe it is about the speed or velocity you ultimately achieve. As Kneale has said, this applies from wedge to high speed carve. "Faster" and the actual speed is relative. For example, in the case of a wedge turn on a nearly flat groomer I would expect the overall speed to be relatively slow. So, when making that wedge turn I would choose a line that is slow, so slow in fact that I want to GO and move offensively throughout the turn.

Slow line fast is mindset. Choosing a line that is slow enough that I want to go faster. Faster being relative to my current speed - not, forever and ever faster and faster.

You'll make great wedge and wedge christie turns if you choose a line that is so slow you just about stall out on a flat groomer, then attempt to make a really really really small turn while trying to GO as fast as you can. You won't ever get going very fast overall, but your intention to GO changes your attitude on the skis and the technique you employ to complete that wedge turn - gliding wedge vs braking wedge.

Choosing a line that is slow enough that I want to go faster. Faster being relative to my current speed - not, forever and ever faster and faster. Again, reference Bob's looping video, he maintains a line that is slow enough he always wants to move offensively through the turn. If he got going "too fast" we would see his movement pattern change dramatically. Instead of seeing him actively trying to "GO there" we would see him become defensive and assume a "DON'T go there" posture.

So I see slow line fast applying to the good skiers like Bob as well as beginners. In your world with your skier in mind I might say that rather than building skills to go faster or control speed per se, you are helping them build skills so your skier can ski the line of their choosing, and if they have control of their line they can choose their speed.

 

[AmyPJ]

Can't wait to see where this thread goes.

From the posts above, it sounds like "skiing the slow line fast" means skiing faster is the preferred intent of skill-building. Is that what people mean?

In my world, "speed control" means keeping oneself in a psychological space that feels safe. What counts as "speed" and "fast" is relative to what's going on in the skier's head. There are some skiers who are uncomfortable with fear. For those skiers to have fun, they need to have a feeling that their speed is under control. (Let's leave out of the conversation for the moment those who are comfortable with fear and seek it out.)

So with those skiers in mind I'm thinking that building skill may not mean intentionally going faster (in any direction), but going something-elser. I guess what I'm saying is that maybe "skiing the slow line fast" may be the perfect thing to aim for with some people some of the time, but not all people all of the time.

This is me to a T. I seem to get scared if I go above about 25mph. (Per my probably not-very-accurate ski app.) If conditions are extremely variable, WAY slower than that. I have no qualms with skiing more slowly with good form and good control, which I have been told in lessons and clinics I have a REALLY good stance. (Yaay!) I just lock up if I start feeling out of control and then I get stiff and all goes to hell. I also have no pride in picking my way down stuff that intimidates me but sure would like to be able to relax and ski it a little faster.

I bought some used Kastle LX82's from Naybreak and need to get out on them already. I'm a little intimidated by them because they are a bit long for me for a full-camber ski but I know they'll be an excellent tool for working on skills. The Sambas are more of a directional bomb the hill ski and probably encourage more bad habits on hard pack/scaped off icy spots.

 

[Coach13]

I've always loved this topic and the conversations/ideas it generates (thanks Bob!).

To me this is about intent rather than technique. That said, I've found that this approach became much easier for me as my technique progressed.

 

[Monique]

Me, I love the feeling of flying down a groomer way too fast, and it's easier to do it than to make controlled turns across the mountain - but I know damn well what could happen if someone ahead of me decides to "break" their line, and I know I'm not skiing in control at that point - so I try to stay in control. (Someone else might very well be in control at that speed - I'm not, unless "in control" means a 40-foot hockey stop.)

 

[Chris Geib]

The two quotes from Bud and Chris are where I interpreted their definition of Slow Line Fast as actively trying to skid less and carve more with pure carve the ideal as more carve is less skid, thus more GO.

Along the continuum between these two extremes is: Turning. Where you control your path by actively guiding the skis with minimal skidding. Slow line fast.

That is what I was getting at when I said: " The slow line fast is describing a method of going down the hill. It focuses on carving turns and maintaining speed over the snow. It is a plan to be executed with skills already learned."

Hi Doug,

Hope your season is going good!

Oh, the words…

My words there might have led to more of an arcing bias when I meant minimal skidding to be more relative along the continuum. At the arc’d turn end of the spectrum there theoretically won’t be any at all! When we wander over to the other end near pivot slips (say one tick over), well the skis are doing very little deflecting and mostly skidding. However, we can still employ that “GO There” drive and offensive movement pattern throughout highly steered turns with little edge engagement.

How about the least amount of skidding necessary to get the job done while moving offensively through the turn?

For example, three turns down a long spine on the back side of a mogul - offensive gliding turns vs defensive check turns. Yes, there will be skidding in either case, however, less so with the offensive gliding turn where the ski will move more closely to the direction it is pointed as it is steered along it’s arc’d path vs the check turn where it is displaced.

Not trying to debate you! Just trying to maybe help clarify my meaning in the fog this morning before my coffee kicks in, but it’s more words so who knows…

Enjoy!

Chris

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

This is me to a T. I seem to get scared if I go above about 25mph. (Per my probably not-very-accurate ski app.) If conditions are extremely variable, WAY slower than that. I have no qualms with skiing more slowly with good form and good control, which I have been told in lessons and clinics I have a REALLY good stance. (Yaay!) I just lock up if I start feeling out of control and then I get stiff and all goes to hell. I also have no pride in picking my way down stuff that intimidates me but sure would like to be able to relax and ski it a little faster.

I bought some used Kastle LX82's from Naybreak and need to get out on them already. I'm a little intimidated by them because they are a bit long for me for a full-camber ski but I know they'll be an excellent tool for working on skills. The Sambas are more of a directional bomb the hill ski and probably encourage more bad habits on hard pack/scaped off icy spots.

Yes, when my fear kicks in, I seem to hit the brakes. I can control speed with turn shape no problem on blue runs with hero snow. However, either icy conditions or a good, steep grade totally changes everything. I think it must be the "fear factor." I encountered it just this week on an icy, groomed blue run that I have skied way too many times to count. It's the annual WROD. I kept telling myself to stop edging and just steer, but my body refused to cooperate with my brain. So, I reverted to singing which always helps a bit.

 

[bbinder]

Me, I love the feeling of flying down a groomer way too fast, and it's easier to do it than to make controlled turns across the mountain - but I know damn well what could happen if someone ahead of me decides to "break" their line, and I know I'm not skiing in control at that point - so I try to stay in control. (Someone else might very well be in control at that speed - I'm not, unless "in control" means a 40-foot hockey stop.)

Well... This sounds like something I would have said 30 years ago. Now, looking back on my 32 year old self, I realize that I was deluding myself and was probably doing some pretty unsafe stuff on the mountain. The (maybe not so) curious thing is after taking some clinics and understanding these concepts a little better, I can ski faster than my younger self. Only safer. And having more fun. In fact I comfortably ski terrain that my younger self would never have attempted.

 

[Monique]

Well... This sounds like something I would have said 30 years ago. Now, looking back on my 32 year old self, I realize that I was deluding myself and was probably doing some pretty unsafe stuff on the mountain. The (maybe not so) curious thing is after taking some clinics and understanding these concepts a little better, I can ski faster than my younger self. Only safer. And having more fun. In fact I comfortably ski terrain that my younger self would never have attempted.

What part of "so I don't do that" did you miss?

 

[bbinder]

What part of "so I don't do that" did you miss?

Sorry, I guess that I dd not see where you said "so I don't do that". However, I was making the point that I did, and that it was stupid and unsafe.

 

[KevinF]

Can't wait to see where this thread goes.

From the posts above, it sounds like "skiing the slow line fast" means skiing faster is the preferred intent of skill-building. Is that what people mean?

In my world, "speed control" means keeping oneself in a psychological space that feels safe. What counts as "speed" and "fast" is relative to what's going on in the skier's head. There are some skiers who are uncomfortable with fear. For those skiers to have fun, they need to have a feeling that their speed is under control. (Let's leave out of the conversation for the moment those who are comfortable with fear and seek it out.)

So with those skiers in mind I'm thinking that building skill may not mean intentionally going faster (in any direction), but going something-elser. I guess what I'm saying is that maybe "skiing the slow line fast" may be the perfect thing to aim for with some people some of the time, but not all people all of the time.

I disagree that "slow line fast" is about skiing faster. Anybody who has skied with me knows that "skiing fast" and "Kevin's skiing" are mutually exclusive And most know that I'm not exactly a thrill-seeker either.

Slow line fast is about trying to go somewhere else. How fast you get to "somewhere else", in terms of real-world time, is irrelevant. To slow down, you *want* to start going uphill. Anybody who has tried skiing uphill knows you don't get very far before you stop. Hockey stops are all about wanting to stop going downhill. Hockey stops are fast-line (straight down the fall line is as fast as it gets) slow (you're stopping). Turning up the hill is slow-line (straight up the fall-line is as slow as it gets) fast (meaning you got there in the first place). The only way to ski uphill is to *turn* uphill; you will never get uphill by pivoting your skis (i.e., braking). Braking and turning are wholly different ideas with totally different movements.

Conversely, to speed up, you *want* to be in the fall-line. You have held onto your old turn too long and now you need the fall line to get your speed back up to where you want it -- which can still be really slow. But to get in the fall-line and stay in the fall-line requires the "patience" concept that we're always discussing. Instructors are always saying DON'T RUSH THE TOP OF THE TURN. The beauty of "slow line fast" is that you won't rush the start of the turn if you're going too slowly when the turn starts, as you're no longer interested in rushing through the fall line. You *want* the fall-line.

Patience at the start of the turn leads to control at the end of the turn. Control at the end of the turn leads to the ability to turn uphill to kill whatever speed you generated during the turn which means you will be patient to start the next turn, which... It's an endless cycle of "good" skiing. And isn't that what you're trying to teach all your students?

 

[Chris Geib]

...The only way to ski uphill is to *turn* uphill; you will never get uphill by pivoting your skis (i.e., braking). Braking and turning are wholly different ideas with totally different movements.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Hi Doug,

Hope your season is going good!

Oh, the words…

My words there might have led to more of an arcing bias when I meant minimal skidding to be more relative along the continuum. At the arc’d turn end of the spectrum there theoretically won’t be any at all! When we wander over to the other end near pivot slips (say one tick over), well the skis are doing very little deflecting and mostly skidding. However, we can still employ that “GO There” drive and offensive movement pattern throughout highly steered turns with little edge engagement.

How about the least amount of skidding necessary to get the job done while moving offensively through the turn?

For example, three turns down a long spine on the back side of a mogul - offensive gliding turns vs defensive check turns. Yes, there will be skidding in either case, however, less so with the offensive gliding turn where the ski will move more closely to the direction it is pointed as it is steered along it’s arc’d path vs the check turn where it is displaced.

Not trying to debate you! Just trying to maybe help clarify my meaning in the fog this morning before my coffee kicks in, but it’s more words so who knows…

Enjoy!

Chris

No worries, Chris. Ski you soon.

 

[KevinF]

This is me to a T. I seem to get scared if I go above about 25mph. (Per my probably not-very-accurate ski app.) If conditions are extremely variable, WAY slower than that. I have no qualms with skiing more slowly with good form and good control, which I have been told in lessons and clinics I have a REALLY good stance. (Yaay!) I just lock up if I start feeling out of control and then I get stiff and all goes to hell. I also have no pride in picking my way down stuff that intimidates me but sure would like to be able to relax and ski it a little faster.

I bought some used Kastle LX82's from Naybreak and need to get out on them already. I'm a little intimidated by them because they are a bit long for me for a full-camber ski but I know they'll be an excellent tool for working on skills. The Sambas are more of a directional bomb the hill ski and probably encourage more bad habits on hard pack/scaped off icy spots.

You, me, and everybody else (well, maybe not Lindsey Vonn...) has a speed where we start thinking "this is too fast" and we hit the brakes and then everything we're talking about in this thread falls apart. You don't want to be patient at the start of the next turn and let the skis reach the fall line so that you can get back "up to speed"... you're already too fast, why would you want to go faster? So you hit the brakes. Braking, by its very definition, is the antithesis of "slow line fast" skiing. Braking is trying to stop going somewhere as opposed to trying to get somewhere.

Realizing that you're hitting the brakes and that you're no longer skiing the way you want to is a good thing in that you're becoming self-aware (cue Skynet...). There's nothing wrong with hitting the brakes when you have to.

 

[Monique]

Sorry, I guess that I dd not see where you said "so I don't do that". However, I was making the point that I did, and that it was stupid and unsafe.

Thanks - I get it, I just wanted to make sure you understood that I'm not delusional (any more) about what I can/should be doing out there - no matter how fun it might be.

 

[Monique]

I want to summarize what I've gotten out of this (very helpful, thank you!) thread so far:

• "skiing the slow line fast" is about using turn shape, ie moving in and out of the fall line, and even up the hill, to maintain the downhill speed you wish to achieve
• "Fast" in this phrase describes an intent to keep moving rather than an intent to slam on the brakes. "Fast" does NOT refer to how quickly you go down the hill (although you can go quite fast if that's your goal).
• skiing the slow line fast may or may not include pure carving/edging at all times, but if you're going back up the fall line, you're using your edges to some degree (I had to think about that one a bit)
• "skiing the slow line fast" is something I can aspire to but may not currently be available to me at all times - sometimes I may have gotten out of control and need to brake and that's just how it is. Also on some slopes, I may not be able to muster the requisite "GO" attitude.

 

[KevinF]

I want to summarize what I've gotten out of this (very helpful, thank you!) thread so far:

• "skiing the slow line fast" is about using turn shape, ie moving in and out of the fall line, and even up the hill, to maintain the downhill speed you wish to achieve
• "Fast" in this phrase describes an intent to keep moving rather than an intent to slam on the brakes. "Fast" does NOT refer to how quickly you go down the hill (although you can go quite fast if that's your goal).
• skiing the slow line fast may or may not include pure carving/edging at all times, but if you're going back up the fall line, you're using your edges to some degree (I had to think about that one a bit)
• "skiing the slow line fast" is something I can aspire to but may not currently be available to me at all times - sometimes I may have gotten out of control and need to brake and that's just how it is. Also on some slopes, I may not be able to muster the requisite "GO" attitude.

You got it.

Regarding your last point... the full phrase, as I heard it, was "ski a slow enough line as fast as you can, when you can". Realizing that you're in "braking" mode vs. "going" mode is a big step forwards.

 

[Spooky]

Slow line fast is about trying to go somewhere else. How fast you get to "somewhere else", in terms of real-world time, is irrelevant.

To me, I see this differently. Where I choose to go determines how fast I should be going. By where, I mean which direction with respect to the fall line I choose to go. Each line choice has a maximum speed you can attain. I choose my speed by determined by which line option I am willing to "straight line".

 

[SkiNurse]

I bought some used Kastle LX82's from Naybreak and need to get out on them already.

I love my LX 82s!!!!

 

[AmyPJ]

I love my LX 82s!!!!

Well, I skied them one run (2200 vertical) today because it was a freakin' ice rink on almost everything out there so thought they were the right tool to drag out. DOH they need an edge tune badly! I hit one spot and I have no idea how I didn't wash out and slide down on my hip. However, on the softer stuff they were SO smooth. More laid back than my Sambas, which I need right now (laid back.) Turn shape turn shape turn shape is all I want to focus on. And I need my left boot canted...oh AND I clocked in at almost 28MPH today and didn't even blink about it. I guess I'm getting more comfortable with speed than I thought I was. But I HATE ice. More than ever. Alternating ice/soft/ice/soft/ice/soft. I think I'd rather just be skiing on ice--at least it'd be consistent.

Anyway, Monique you summed up what the idea is very well! Even made my light bulb go off.