• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

What does "ski the slow line fast" mean?

bbinder

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
2,224
Location
Massachusetts
I am very good at judging when to release UNTIL there is ice in the mix. I don't think anything throws me for a loop (and puts me in MAJOR defensive mode) more than a mix of ice and soft. Yet I see others who are not even phased by it, so, with that in mind...

How do you overcome very old habits of braking vs. GO. What do you do to start getting the GO intent worked into a skier who has braking very much engrained into their movement patterns?
As someone who lives in the Northeast, I can appreciate your comment about ice. It certainly is an equalizer of sorts, where many people who ski soft snow very well feel like lesser skiers when they hit ice. Here is what I suggest (at least these thoughts work for me): don't try to dig in/edge harder when you hit icy patch (defensive); rather, soften your edge pressure and glide over the ice until you hit soft snow again. Maintain your stance with the rest of your body, without tensing, and be ready to continue skiing when you hit the soft snow. Be ready for some grabbing sensation as you hit the soft snow -- sort of like when you go from groomed snow to crud. You might think of the icy patch as a "pause button" where you stop "skiing" as you move over the ice. Don't be concerned if you side sideways or down the hill when you hit the ice -- maintaining your body position will keep you in balance so that you do not fall. Think of skiing around the icy patches like you might plan skiing in a mogul field.

Using these suggestions will mean that your turns will not be as symmetrical as in Bob's video. I suggest not worrying about that for now. As you become more comfortable with the sensations of skiing on ice, you will gain confidence to become smoother. If there is more snow than ice, you will look like a hero. If the snow/ice ratio is 50:50, you will begin to have fun in these conditions. If there is more ice than snow, well, that's when I pack it in and go home!

Of course, well tuned skis make a big difference! AND, this should all be moot in your neck of the woods in a week or two!
 

GettingThere

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
55
Interesting discussion.

My personal insight from "ski the slow line fast" was to ski offensively and not defensively (i.e., always going/driving/moving in the direction the skis were pointed as opposed to skidding). This then led to faster, glided turns with a lot of other positive side effects including better com flow and better utilization of top and mid part of the turn (as opposed to slamming on the brakes at the bottom of the turn). Once I bought into that, I then had to rely on turn shape more to manage speed.

So for me, more "even" flowing skiing ..
 

AmyPJ

Skiing the powder
SkiTalk Tester
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,835
Location
Ogden, UT
As someone who lives in the Northeast, I can appreciate your comment about ice. It certainly is an equalizer of sorts, where many people who ski soft snow very well feel like lesser skiers when they hit ice. Here is what I suggest (at least these thoughts work for me): don't try to dig in/edge harder when you hit icy patch (defensive); rather, soften your edge pressure and glide over the ice until you hit soft snow again. Maintain your stance with the rest of your body, without tensing, and be ready to continue skiing when you hit the soft snow. Be ready for some grabbing sensation as you hit the soft snow -- sort of like when you go from groomed snow to crud. You might think of the icy patch as a "pause button" where you stop "skiing" as you move over the ice. Don't be concerned if you side sideways or down the hill when you hit the ice -- maintaining your body position will keep you in balance so that you do not fall. Think of skiing around the icy patches like you might plan skiing in a mogul field.

Using these suggestions will mean that your turns will not be as symmetrical as in Bob's video. I suggest not worrying about that for now. As you become more comfortable with the sensations of skiing on ice, you will gain confidence to become smoother. If there is more snow than ice, you will look like a hero. If the snow/ice ratio is 50:50, you will begin to have fun in these conditions. If there is more ice than snow, well, that's when I pack it in and go home!

Of course, well tuned skis make a big difference! AND, this should all be moot in your neck of the woods in a week or two!

Egads getting over the defensive mode is SO hard for me! I DO edge harder when I hit it, especially on a steeper pitch. I can feather a lot better on lower angle stuff (go figure!) I KNOW I should feather on the ice more, but it's hard when you are edging on even a nice edgeable hard pack then BAM! Icy patch and all control is lost.

OR I can wait a few more weeks and be like most of the locals who skip skiing until the GOOD stuff arrives :D I have friends who won't even think about going out until at least a foot has fallen. Spoiled!
 

bbinder

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
2,224
Location
Massachusetts
Egads getting over the defensive mode is SO hard for me! I DO edge harder when I hit it, especially on a steeper pitch. I can feather a lot better on lower angle stuff (go figure!) I KNOW I should feather on the ice more, but it's hard when you are edging on even a nice edgeable hard pack then BAM! Icy patch and all control is lost.

OR I can wait a few more weeks and be like most of the locals who skip skiing until the GOOD stuff arrives :D I have friends who won't even think about going out until at least a foot has fallen. Spoiled!
"Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. That's what makes it good: If it wasn't hard then everyone would do it." (really an approximate quote, but extra points if you identify where it is from) This is where comparing an icy slope to a mogul field holds up IMHO: you are looking forward enough to anticipate changes in the terrain...

BUT: this is getting off the topic of slow line fast -- maybe we need another thread...
 
Thread Starter
TS
Monique

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
Here is what I suggest (at least these thoughts work for me): don't try to dig in/edge harder when you hit icy patch (defensive); rather, soften your edge pressure and glide over the ice until you hit soft snow again. Maintain your stance with the rest of your body, without tensing, and be ready to continue skiing when you hit the soft snow.

This is what instructor Dirk at Breck taught us - that it's less scary to keep your bases flat to the ice and slide intentionally than to try to edge into the ice and then go skidding if they don't bite. The other thing he said, when we said we were sliding out, was "So??" I guess the idea is if you accept that ice will make you slide, you can start from there, rather than fighting the expectation that you shouldn't slide out.

Still, I feel like I "should" be able to bite if I only trusted my edges enough. I mean, racers do, right?
 

Doug Briggs

"Douche Bag Local"
Industry Insider
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Posts
7,483
Location
Breckenridge, CO
I've thought about this, but I'm not sure I want to make that commitment. I know for a fact that racing would improve my skiing.

You may be able to get racing instruction in a regular lesson. Just ask about it. Breck has a course set up specifically for ski school in addition to using the EpicMix racing course. Daily drop in rates are usually available with Masters race programs (http://www.rmmskiracing.org/training).

I could loan you some race skis if you choose to give it a try.
 
Thread Starter
TS
Monique

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
You may be able to get racing instruction in a regular lesson. Just ask about it. Breck has a course set up specifically for ski school in addition to using the EpicMix racing course. Daily drop in rates are usually available with Masters race programs (http://www.rmmskiracing.org/training).

I could loan you some race skis if you choose to give it a try.

Thanks for the generous offer - I'll consider. I've done the EpicMix race course with a class, but it has been really just a fun distraction and generally on skis that are at least 100mm.
 

Doug Briggs

"Douche Bag Local"
Industry Insider
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Posts
7,483
Location
Breckenridge, CO
This is what instructor Dirk at Breck taught us - that it's less scary to keep your bases flat to the ice and slide intentionally than to try to edge into the ice and then go skidding if they don't bite. The other thing he said, when we said we were sliding out, was "So??" I guess the idea is if you accept that ice will make you slide, you can start from there, rather than fighting the expectation that you shouldn't slide out.

Still, I feel like I "should" be able to bite if I only trusted my edges enough. I mean, racers do, right?

By 'keep your bases flat', I assume he meant to simply maintain any edge angle and go with the slide. Hopefully your bases aren't flat to the snow to start. One thing that not trying to maintain grip does is that your skis aren't on a high edge angle when you leave the hard snow and return to softer, grippier snow. If you get on a big edge angle on the ice and don't skid, then returning to the softer snow is not an issue as your skis continue to carve. However, if you skid, increase edge angle then skid into softer snow, you often lose your balance and end up high siding or a least getting severely jostled by the change in grip.

Skiing in a way that will let you maintain a turn regardless of the surface condition you encounter (like the worlds best racers) is extremely strenuous and not recreational. Unless you have absolutely sharp edges (looking at them hurts, they are that sharp) AND anticipate the change in conditions by insuring proper stance and edge angles, you will slide. Even the racers do. They just slide less in most cases.

I'm known as a racer and when I race (sounds like a meme, huh?) I strive to not slip. But this is extremely energetic skiing on a prepared surface and with a closed arena. When I am recreational skiing and come over the top of Duke's, I expect to slide. That surface is polished. It is steep and it is off camber. I don't try to maintain an arc or keep from skidding. I allow it. The key thing is that I am balanced over my skis and when I slide I maintain that balance; partly through anticipation, partly through subconscious reaction (skiing). It is harder to manage speed when sliding on a firm surface like this so anticipation and speed reduction before skidding is useful.

For me skidding is a skill that comes into play a lot. I like to make lots of turns and I like to maintain control. Sometimes the turns alone aren't sufficient to manage an appropriate speed, so each turn becomes a brushed turn to control speed since the option to turn more isn't available.
 

KevinF

Gathermeister-New England
Team Gathermeister
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,344
Location
New England
I am very good at judging when to release UNTIL there is ice in the mix. I don't think anything throws me for a loop (and puts me in MAJOR defensive mode) more than a mix of ice and soft. Yet I see others who are not even phased by it, so, with that in mind...

How do you overcome very old habits of braking vs. GO. What do you do to start getting the GO intent worked into a skier who has braking very much engrained into their movement patterns?

My favorite "drill" is to find "stuff" in the snow. Pine needles, shadows, "interesting looking" clumps of snow, etc. Anything that stands out to you; i.e., something that you can find and quickly. Treat all those like race gates. Your goal is to get around them. Not sliding over them. Around them.

Doing that forces you to pick a line in advance. You want to find a path around all your imaginary obstacles that contains enough speed control that you don't have to hit the brakes. It'll take some practice to find a line that works for you and your comfort level with speed, etc. Start small -- three or four turns is plenty. You can get absolutely diabolical -- stuff that's behind you (i.e., you have to get uphill to get around it), stuff that's way off to the side, tight turns, long turns, etc. Let the speed climb, bring the speed way down. Get imaginative. The possibilities are endless. Early season can be great for this as the groomer tends to bring up "stuff".

(If you absolutely love your edges and bases, do be careful what you're aiming for... ).

I like doing this drill with the twin shadows from lift cables, although you have to be careful as those pesky lift towers show up periodically. Start between the shadows and your goal is to get over to one shadow... then over to the other cable's shadow. And back again. If you are hitting the brakes when you turn on one shadow, you'll never get to the other cable's shadow.

If the shadows aren't working, tracks from a groomer work too. First thing you can usually see how wide "one groomer" is. Same thing as with the cable shadows (although one groomer wide is pretty fast turning at any kind of speed... feel free to expand it to two or three groomer widths).

Those shiny patches of icy snow? Plot a path in your head around them. I'm on the Ice Coast; there's virtually always a way around ice here.
 
Thread Starter
TS
Monique

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado
By 'keep your bases flat', I assume he meant to simply maintain any edge angle and go with the slide. Hopefully your bases aren't flat to the snow to start.

I'm sure any errors of communication are mine, not his. I do sometimes keep my bases flat, or pretty flat, on ice, and it actually works pretty well in terms of control - nothing surprising. Nothing great, either, but nothing surprising.

When I am recreational skiing and come over the top of Duke's, I expect to slide. That surface is polished. It is steep and it is off camber. I don't try to maintain an arc or keep from skidding. I allow it.

Hah. Duke's is exactly what I was picturing. I was in a group with a snowboarder Friday and so, having gotten on Rocky, I was "forced" to ski Duke's when I would have preferred Northstar. I thought maybe I could hit up Duke bumps, but my thighs weren't having it. Man, I find Duke's terrifying. Yes, I can slide, but I feel like I get going way too fast and worry that I won't be able to react to terrain changes (not to mention people who might change direction unexpectedly). How do you deal with that?
 

AmyPJ

Skiing the powder
SkiTalk Tester
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,835
Location
Ogden, UT
My favorite "drill" is to find "stuff" in the snow. Pine needles, shadows, "interesting looking" clumps of snow, etc. Anything that stands out to you; i.e., something that you can find and quickly. Treat all those like race gates. Your goal is to get around them. Not sliding over them. Around them.

Doing that forces you to pick a line in advance. You want to find a path around all your imaginary obstacles that contains enough speed control that you don't have to hit the brakes. It'll take some practice to find a line that works for you and your comfort level with speed, etc. Start small -- three or four turns is plenty. You can get absolutely diabolical -- stuff that's behind you (i.e., you have to get uphill to get around it), stuff that's way off to the side, tight turns, long turns, etc. Let the speed climb, bring the speed way down. Get imaginative. The possibilities are endless. Early season can be great for this as the groomer tends to bring up "stuff".

(If you absolutely love your edges and bases, do be careful what you're aiming for... ).

I like doing this drill with the twin shadows from lift cables, although you have to be careful as those pesky lift towers show up periodically. Start between the shadows and your goal is to get over to one shadow... then over to the other cable's shadow. And back again. If you are hitting the brakes when you turn on one shadow, you'll never get to the other cable's shadow.

If the shadows aren't working, tracks from a groomer work too. First thing you can usually see how wide "one groomer" is. Same thing as with the cable shadows (although one groomer wide is pretty fast turning at any kind of speed... feel free to expand it to two or three groomer widths).

Those shiny patches of icy snow? Plot a path in your head around them. I'm on the Ice Coast; there's virtually always a way around ice here.
This is great, Kevin! Something tells me that this game will quickly turn the overthinking brain off. I always ski so well in a private or semi-private lesson because I just follow along and don't think.

As for dodging the ice patches, I do try that and it's way easier later in the season when the sides of the runs are filled in better. Right now, between snow guns taking up parts of the runs, and the runs being low tide on the sides, it's way more difficult. I try to scout the ice out on the first run then avoid it on the following runs, but even that has been difficult this year. There are ice patches EVERYWHERE.
 

AmyPJ

Skiing the powder
SkiTalk Tester
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,835
Location
Ogden, UT
"Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. That's what makes it good: If it wasn't hard then everyone would do it." (really an approximate quote, but extra points if you identify where it is from) This is where comparing an icy slope to a mogul field holds up IMHO: you are looking forward enough to anticipate changes in the terrain...

BUT: this is getting off the topic of slow line fast -- maybe we need another thread...
My favorite actor, Tom Hanks!
 

bud heishman

Skiing performance facilitator
Instructor
Sky Tavern
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Posts
539
Location
Tahoe
I am very good at judging when to release UNTIL there is ice in the mix. I don't think anything throws me for a loop (and puts me in MAJOR defensive mode) more than a mix of ice and soft. Yet I see others who are not even phased by it, so, with that in mind...

How do you overcome very old habits of braking vs. GO. What do you do to start getting the GO intent worked into a skier who has braking very much engrained into their movement patterns?

So Amy, this is where intent and technique are separated. It sounds like your issue with this is technique related? Standing well over your inside edge of your outside ski both fore/aft and left to right balancing solidly over the inside edge of the outside ski as well as beginning your turn with a very small steering angle as well as having sharp smooth ski edges will all contribute to this problem (techique, equipment). It is very difficult to carve from an over initiated turn. Perhaps this is another thread? T.E.P.P. skier analysis model.
 
Thread Starter
TS
Monique

Monique

bounceswoosh
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
10,561
Location
Colorado

KevinF

Gathermeister-New England
Team Gathermeister
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,344
Location
New England
"Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. That's what makes it good: If it wasn't hard then everyone would do it."

I believe what you're trying to remember was: "It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great"
 

bud heishman

Skiing performance facilitator
Instructor
Sky Tavern
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Posts
539
Location
Tahoe
If you try to hold an edge when you hit ice with a larger steering angle of attack, your chances of success are slim to none. The more the ski is moving forward and the less it is moving sideways the better. Also, you need to be well balanced over the inside edge of the outside ski. I see so many skiers and instructors banking and relying on the edge grip to save them rather than balancing with a good body position so that they could lift their inside ski off the snow at any given time. If you can not do this you are not going to hold on ice.
 

AmyPJ

Skiing the powder
SkiTalk Tester
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,835
Location
Ogden, UT
If you try to hold an edge when you hit ice with a larger steering angle of attack, your chances of success are slim to none. The more the ski is moving forward and the less it is moving sideways the better. Also, you need to be well balanced over the inside edge of the outside ski. I see so many skiers and instructors banking and relying on the edge grip to save them rather than balancing with a good body position so that they could lift their inside ski off the snow at any given time. If you can not do this you are not going to hold on ice.
So, bigger "C" with the upper body? More reaching pole plants?? In addition to boot fit/cant issues, I absolutely know I have balance issues.
 

AmyPJ

Skiing the powder
SkiTalk Tester
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
7,835
Location
Ogden, UT
So Amy, this is where intent and technique are separated. It sounds like your issue with this is technique related? Standing well over your inside edge of your outside ski both fore/aft and left to right balancing solidly over the inside edge of the outside ski as well as beginning your turn with a very small steering angle as well as having sharp smooth ski edges will all contribute to this problem (techique, equipment). It is very difficult to carve from an over initiated turn. Perhaps this is another thread? T.E.P.P. skier analysis model.

I 100% guarantee you it is technique related. I get so frankly pissed off when I see people who I know aren't half as strong OR determined as I am just bop down the hill over this stuff like it isn't even there.

I am so disappointed that private lessons anymore are so expensive. And when I take a group lesson, I am typically disappointed in the level of instruction I get. Snowbasin used to offer one half priced private lesson to premier passholders per season. They are not doing that this year. I have access to probably one of the best instructors in Utah and yet I can't even remotely afford him anymore. I think I need to ask him who he recommends for a "group lesson", then show up on a weekday when they are teaching, knowing the odds are I'll get them in essentially a private lesson. (That used to be 4ster he'd recommend, not sure who to ask for now!)
 

KevinF

Gathermeister-New England
Team Gathermeister
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
3,344
Location
New England
So, bigger "C" with the upper body? More reaching pole plants?? In addition to boot fit/cant issues, I absolutely know I have balance issues.

This is getting into a separate thread topic, but take it from a dyed-in-the-wool Ice Coast skier. The firmer the "snow", the more perfect you have to be. An over-reached pole plant can ruin whatever edge grip you have. An under-reached pole plant can ruin your edge grip too. Too little outside ski pressure is bad. Too much outside ski pressure is bad.

I've had the opportunity to see myself on video after skiing ice several times. I participate in a race league on Tuesday nights, and they video every run, so I see what I looked like, every week, all season long. I usually finish thinking that I was sliding like crazy and fighting for whatever edge grip I can find the entire way... and then I look at the video. Now while the video doesn't make me look like the second coming of Mikaela, it never looks anywhere close to as bad as it felt either.

So don't be too hard on yourself when it comes to firm conditions. Those people you see who make icy conditions look effortless? They're probably sliding more than you think they are, and they're probably having more "oh s---" moments than you think.

Keep in mind the principles that we've discussed in this thread ("go" thoughts lead to skis that are traveling in the direction they're pointed more than they don't) and the end result winds up looking pretty good.
 

Sponsor

Staff online

  • Andy Mink
    Everyone loves spring skiing but not in January
Top