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What does "ski the slow line fast" mean?

Pete in Idaho

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... Why should that be our intent? Knowing how to carve is intrinsically good because having more tools in my toolbox is intrinsically good, but why should my intent be to always carve instead of smear? I hear a lot of people talking about how fun carving is, but - so is smearing! I had a few incredible runs last spring where I would do these big power slides down corn bumps and it was just glorious. I don't see why I should feel like that was somehow inferior because I wasn't trying to carve.

You should not feel inferior because you don't carve your skis all the time. Once, a few years ago I had a Level III instructor tell me "you should strive to carve your turns everywhere you ski, a good skier will carve anywhere and all the time". Later that day the two of us skied Northface Glades at Silver Mt. (which is pretty steep in the middle of the area) he fell 3 times. Going up the chair we discussed carving and my premise was somewhat like Monique's. To really ski the whole mountain you won't be able to carve every turn nor would you want to.

The chutes at Mammoth, if you carved your turns you would be in the rocks. Going into one man chute at Kirkwood if you carved going in, you would be doing the small part of hour glass on your face or arse. There are places when skiing the whole mountain where you will want to smear, slip, side slip, hop, side slip backwards etc. to try and carve every turn is foolish and would detract from ones ability to get to the goods let alone ski them. Fun is also a very important part of skiing and if you are smearing bumpb on a soft snow day, have at it.


Can't wait to see where this thread goes.

From the posts above, it sounds like "skiing the slow line fast" means skiing faster is the preferred intent of skill-building. Is that what people mean?

In my world, "speed control" means keeping oneself in a psychological space that feels safe. What counts as "speed" and "fast" is relative to what's going on in the skier's head. There are some skiers who are uncomfortable with fear. For those skiers to have fun, they need to have a feeling that their speed is under control. (Let's leave out of the conversation for the moment those who are comfortable with fear and seek it out.)

So with those skiers in mind I'm thinking that building skill may not mean intentionally going faster (in any direction), but going something-elser. I guess what I'm saying is that maybe "skiing the slow line fast" may be the perfect thing to aim for with some people some of the time, but not all people all of the time.


I certainly agree with speed means different things to different people. There are skiers out there that never go fast as it petrifies them and their idea of speed is much different than yours or mine. Skiing the slow line fast would not be comprehensible to them. So this raises the question, if you taught a speed apprhensive person the use the terrain to slow down, not to brake and to finish their turns uphill to slow down and to vary the radius of their finished turns to help control speed. Would this be the same thing ? For them it probably would be, it would take some time to show them how to use the terrain and their turn shape to control speed but could be done on an easy blue run.

Note. I used a certain method of teaching skiers how to overcome fear (speed is there) and maybe we can cover this some day.
 

Chris Geib

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...So this raises the question, if you taught a speed apprhensive person the use the terrain to slow down, not to brake and to finish their turns uphill to slow down and to vary the radius of their finished turns to help control speed. Would this be the same thing ?

Yes. Absolutely!

And it is not incomprehensible :)
 
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Monique

Monique

bounceswoosh
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Note. I used a certain method of teaching skiers how to overcome fear (speed is there) and maybe we can cover this some day.

I would be interested in this. New topic?
 

Chris Geib

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Turn Shape?

“You keep using that word, I don’t think it means what you think it means!”
Couldn’t resist for my friend @SkiNurse …and because I’m cranky having to fly today.

Does turn shape really control speed? Which shape is best for controlling speed:

C ( ~ U S > Z @ ?

When I watch Bob in the looping gif I do not get the impression that the turn “shape” is doing much to slow him down; looks to me like he’s doing a fine job of keeping his speed throughout the turn. So, I don’t feel it is the “shape” of the turn that is allowing him to keep from going too fast. Likewise I can ski that turn right behind Bob scribing the same “shape” at the same rate, or I could follow that path with a basic open parallel turn, or I could trace the same “shape” with a wedge turn.


What if we took the gif of Bob skiing and put him in a half pipe with the fall line coming straight at us? What if we angled that stunt ditch so it went from top right corner of the screen to the bottom left corner? What if we made it a curving gully? What if there was an endless series of rollers of random size, pitch and spacing that he was skiing on in that gif? Would his chosen turn “shape” continue to work?

If you are leading a new skier up to a rollover do you adjust your turn shape or do you adjust your line? How about when you show that new bump skier how to use the berm for a nice smooth ride around that monster bump, would it then be advisable to use that same “shape” turn a few feet to the inside on the next run taking them right up and over top of that monster and down the steep back side into the trough?

I don’t think its the “shape”…


LL
 

Pete in Idaho

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Turn shape and going fast or going slow.

Controlling and maintaining my speed without braking is sometime performed by using the terrain and its relationship to go downhill. Depending on the terrain I might use short, med or long radius turns but more importantly where I finish the turn in relationship to speed and the terrain. Where do you start a turn to keep skiing down the hill, at the speed you wish. Well when you finish a turn you start the next turn. But, all turns don't have a finite finish point. One of my favorite ways to ski is to use short, med and SG turns on a particular aspect of where I am. Love SG turns that carry on and on. Yes, line and turn shape can be integrated and it is not bad nor is it necessarily good but sure is fun.
 
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Monique

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So ... line?
 

Daniel Helin

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I've heard it from lots of people, but it still doesn't make sense to me. @Chris Geib suggested that I start a new topic and page @Bob Barnes ... so - Bob, or anyone, can you edumucate me?
Learning to carve from arc to arc is a challenge, The scary part is to carve from transition to the fall line, you have to move your core to the inside of the new turn, which means it's down hill ahead of your feet. in order to do this we must carry enough speed ( momentum ), to have enough force to overcome gravity. It's called the upside-down turn. Ron Lemaster wrote a great article for ski Racing news on the topic, I hope this helps. http://www.ronlemaster.com/articles/Nicole Hosp.pdf
 

Tricia

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Learning to carve from arc to arc is a challenge, The scary part is to carve from transition to the fall line, you have to move your core to the inside of the new turn, which means it's down hill ahead of your feet. in order to do this we must carry enough speed ( momentum ), to have enough force to overcome gravity. It's called the upside-down turn. Ron Lemaster wrote a great article for ski Racing news on the topic, I hope this helps. http://www.ronlemaster.com/articles/Nicole Hosp.pdf
Great first post, and thanks for sharing that link. Ron's stuff is brilliant.
 

UGASkiDawg

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Wow this post has gotten technical. I posted the statement in the other thread because for me it changed my thinking about skiing. It's about intent however one chooses to implement that intent. Carry on though, I'm fascinated by how much some people can think about and break down their skiing.
 
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Monique

Monique

bounceswoosh
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Wow this post has gotten technical. I posted the statement in the other thread because for me it changed my thinking about skiing. It's about intent however one chooses to implement that intent. Carry on though, I'm fascinated by how much some people can think about and break down their skiing.

I am in the sad position of needing that sort of technical detail in order to figure it out. Any ability I've ever had in sports has come from a heck of a lot of hard work, including my brain - none of it comes naturally. Or, as my Taekwondo instructor said to me when I got my first degree black belt years ago - "Congratulations! You used to have three left feet, and now you only have two!" So to someone who has at least some level of natural athletic ability, it probably sounds crazy to pick and pick at this sort of thing, but it helps me a lot.
 

Tricia

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Wow this post has gotten technical. I posted the statement in the other thread because for me it changed my thinking about skiing. It's about intent however one chooses to implement that intent. Carry on though, I'm fascinated by how much some people can think about and break down their skiing.
For me, I needed to learn by breaking it down but once I felt it I stopped breaking it down.
Well........sometimes, ya gotta break it down!
 

AmyPJ

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I am in the sad position of needing that sort of technical detail in order to figure it out. Any ability I've ever had in sports has come from a heck of a lot of hard work, including my brain - none of it comes naturally. Or, as my Taekwondo instructor said to me when I got my first degree black belt years ago - "Congratulations! You used to have three left feet, and now you only have two!" So to someone who has at least some level of natural athletic ability, it probably sounds crazy to pick and pick at this sort of thing, but it helps me a lot.

Again, you are describing me. I have strength and rhythm but lack coordination big time. Throw in a high level of fear and I have to work extremely hard to do things like skiing and mountain biking. Oddly enough, I enjoy the hell out of both! Just wish I were better at them. Some folks are content going out there and skidding around barely in control. I am not one of those. So, like Monique, I have to break things down into bits and pieces and work on specific movement patterns until they start to become second nature. And even then, they don't always remain second nature.

I frankly don't care if I ski very fast. I DO care if I ski well, though. And I do and have been told I ski VERY well--on hero snow and the perfect pitch for my comfort zone.
 

Tricia

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@Monique I hope you can get to a point where you feel it. Once you do you'll say AH Ha!!!
 

bud heishman

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We can either start our turns down the slope with the brakes on, or we can coast. Our GO is limited to the pull of gravity since we do not have a motor to accelerate. Think about it, we can only conserve what momentum we accumulate. So the trick is to judge when to release our turns after we have crossed the fall line to carry the desired amount of momentum into the next turn without feeling the need to step on the brakes!

As we improve our skills to shape the bottom of our turns permitting the skis to move more forward than sideways (small steering angle) we find more momentum being carried forward along the length of our skis rather than sideways scraping off speed. With this more efficient turning at turn completion, we can now carry that forward momentum into the top of the new turn, offering more options along the pivoting/carving continuum. As our confidence increases in controlling our descent through skiing a slower line, we find less need to brake before the fall line in the top of our turns and therefore less need for creating a larger steering angle at initiation. Our turns become rounder and more exhilarating and the joy of turning rather than braking becomes apparent!

There is nothing to suggest we must carve to ski with the GO intent! Any level skier can adopt the GO intent and I teach students and instructors the go intent from the very first wedge turns. Many many threads have discussed this contrast. Unfortunately many if not most instructors choose the easiest path for themselves when teaching beginners by using braking wedges with edge and pressure to introduce turning! This is a one way street to defensive skiing. In contrast trainers in the know try to encourage instructors to avoid braking wedges while encouraging lower leg rotary skills (fulcrum turning) which involve releasing the edge resistance on the right ski to got right, rather than increasing deflection under the left ski to overpower the right ski to go right! One is "antagonistic" the other is "cooperative". This simple small change sets the skier on the path to discover speed control through turning rather than braking. Learning with the emphasis on this simple action is learning parallel turn mechanics from the beginning and quickly leads to that goal. This IS the GO intent instilled from the beginning!
 

AmyPJ

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We can either start our turns down the slope with the brakes on, or we can coast. Our GO is limited to the pull of gravity since we do not have a motor to accelerate. Think about it, we can only conserve what momentum we accumulate. So the trick is to judge when to release our turns after we have crossed the fall line to carry the desired amount of momentum into the next turn without feeling the need to step on the brakes!

As we improve our skills to shape the bottom of our turns permitting the skis to move more forward than sideways (small steering angle) we find more momentum being carried forward along the length of our skis rather than sideways scraping off speed. With this more efficient turning at turn completion, we can now carry that forward momentum into the top of the new turn, offering more options along the pivoting/carving continuum. As our confidence increases in controlling our descent through skiing a slower line, we find less need to brake before the fall line in the top of our turns and therefore less need for creating a larger steering angle at initiation. Our turns become rounder and more exhilarating and the joy of turning rather than braking becomes apparent!

There is nothing to suggest we must carve to ski with the GO intent! Any level skier can adopt the GO intent and I teach students and instructors the go intent from the very first wedge turns. Many many threads have discussed this contrast. Unfortunately many if not most instructors choose the easiest path for themselves when teaching beginners by using braking wedges with edge and pressure to introduce turning! This is a one way street to defensive skiing. In contrast trainers in the know try to encourage instructors to avoid braking wedges while encouraging lower leg rotary skills (fulcrum turning) which involve releasing the edge resistance on the right ski to got right, rather than increasing deflection under the left ski to overpower the right ski to go right! One is "antagonistic" the other is "cooperative". This simple small change sets the skier on the path to discover speed control through turning rather than braking. Learning with the emphasis on this simple action is learning parallel turn mechanics from the beginning and quickly leads to that goal. This IS the GO intent instilled from the beginning!

I am very good at judging when to release UNTIL there is ice in the mix. I don't think anything throws me for a loop (and puts me in MAJOR defensive mode) more than a mix of ice and soft. Yet I see others who are not even phased by it, so, with that in mind...

How do you overcome very old habits of braking vs. GO. What do you do to start getting the GO intent worked into a skier who has braking very much engrained into their movement patterns?
 

Doug Briggs

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I like to refer to 'turn size' or 'turn radius' not 'turn shape'.
 
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Monique

Monique

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Get in a race clinic. Your desire to win will generally exceed your desire to maintain 'comfortable' speeds.

I've thought about this, but I'm not sure I want to make that commitment. I know for a fact that racing would improve my skiing.
 

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