What does "ski the slow line fast" mean?

[Monique]

I've heard it from lots of people, but it still doesn't make sense to me. @Chris Geib suggested that I start a new topic and page @Bob Barnes ... so - Bob, or anyone, can you edumucate me?

 

[bud heishman]

Hi Monique, Bob, the first crusader of the "GO" movement describes "skiing the slow line fast" as a paradigm shift in many skier's psyche where we separate the intent to turn from the intent to brake. While some skiers turn their skis with the intent to slow down, Bob suggests this intent is the demise of many skiers. Learning the GO intent to turn is to ski a slow enough line to control our descents while skiing around that line as fast as possible. If we need to brake, we do not call that turning. The converse would be a skier skiing the fast line slow, which would involve skiing closer to the fall line while tossing the tails and braking, scraping, skidding to control speed. As Bob suggests there are only two ways to slow down, friction or gravity. Skiing the slow line fast entails using gravity to the fullest and controlling speed through turn shape rather than using friction from stemming, pivoting, scraping, skidding and all the other adjectives that create friction.

Discovering the "GO" intent is an epiphany for many! This is how experts ski and is one of the reasons they look so fluid and effortless in their descents. Trying to keep the skis moving forward as much as possible is the goal.

 

[Monique]

If we need to brake, we do not call that turning.

Skiing the slow line fast entails using gravity to the fullest and controlling speed through turn shape

Thanks, Bud. I think these two quotes are where I get really confused. We don't call it turning ... but we do control speed through turn shape. (There's a smiley not available on pugski with three question marks above its head ... imagine I put that here)

I *think* what you're saying is "you're turning anyway, all the time, whether you're skiing fast or slow. Braking comes from turn shape in the turn you're already making, not from skidding or throwing tails frantically." Is that right?

I need to work on this, although sometimes it's fun to play with other stuff, too. Headed toward the base on Peak 8 if it's not super scrapey, I like to just twist my feet so that I'm windshield wipering the last several hundred yards, theoretically in a straight line.

But - as I said, I need to work on this. I ran into a ski instructor friend yesterday, and we caught up from the summer and chatted with his remaining student as we warmed up. We were talking about skiing in control, and the student, whose level I don't know but who said he didn't want to be anywhere near moguls, commented that though he skied more advanced runs than his wife, he found it very difficult to ski behind her because she skied in controlled, slow turns. He couldn't ski as slowly as she did. I totally related to this, which I suspect means that parts of my skiing are still level 5 or so. And I know it's a problem, because yesterday I went around to the right of two little kids skiing carefully down the mountain (I should have realized what was going on with seemingly one kid leading the other ) ... so I was between them and the trees. I had plenty of room to pass and then *be* past them at that point in the run. And I picked up some speed and then realized there was an instructor at the bottom of that little section with a group of kids, with less space between them and the trees than I'd had further above. And I had too much speed coming in, and not enough room, and I ended up skiing past them not nearly close enough to hit them, but too fast at that distance for my comfort or theirs. And I'm pretty sure the instructor yelled at me, and I don't blame him. Anyway, I'm sure I should have had the control for things not to have played out that way. It was a bit scrapey and I didn't trust myself to brake hard without making the situation worse.

 

[Chris Geib]

Hi Monique,

First step is to understand that Bud & Bob make a distinction between braking & turning.

Not to speak for Bud, but I believe he would not agree with your statement: “you’re turning anyway, all the time…” I don’t.

For example, when you do that windshield wipering the last several hundred yards at the base of Peak 8, you are not turning. And, you even recognize your goal is not to turn: “…theoretically in a straight line.” You pivot your feet/skis, but you are not turning; if you were in a car you would say you are skidding out of control as you go straight regardless of which way you turn the steering wheel! So, you rotate the skis across your direction of travel in order to apply the brakes. That exercise you are doing is the extreme of FastLineSlow - straight down the fall-line (no turning / no direction control) while applying the brakes to regulate speed. That is one extreme of the spectrum with pure arc’d carves at the other end. On the pure arc side you are locked on the rails and give over direction control to the path the ski will scribe as it runs on edge (though you can influence this by edge angle), but if something "gets in the way of your carve" you will mow it down.

Along the continuum between these two extremes is: Turning. Where you control your path by actively guiding the skis with minimal skidding. Slow line fast.

Another distinction is between braking and controlling speed by line selection. Continuing a pure arc carve uphill as fast as you can go (without applying any braking) is extremely effective for slowing you down. Compare that to your Peak 8 exercise! Going straight downhill while on the brakes vs skiing uphill as fast as you can. Those are two extremes as well with infinite line choices in between!

Look at Bob’s looping gif below. Is he trying to control his speed with his turns? …or is he trying to not only minimize speed loss but to GO fast-er as he exits the turn and heads into the next??? Those are only two turns, but I know from experience he can carry that on indefinitely down the hill turn after turn while seeming maintaining that consistent speed and cadence.

What about you? Are you trying to control speed with your turns or are you seeking to carry as much or more speed out of one turn into the next (when you can)?

"Good skiing means skiing a slow enough line as fast as you can, when you can."

 

[Drahtguy Kevin]

Nice, informative post, @Chris Geib.

 

[SBrown]

I always liked Bob's phrasing here, and have no issue with it, but I think many get hung up on the definition of fast, ie is it speed or velocity or what. Because clearly Bob would go "faster" if he weren't turning, ie he would get to the bottom of the hill sooner. Assuming the existence of bottom-of-hill, which from that gif isn't really clear.

 

[Monique]

Look at Bob’s looping gif below. Is he trying to control his speed with his turns? …or is he trying to not only minimize speed loss but to GO fast-er as he exits the turn and heads into the next??? Those are only two turns, but I know from experience he can carry that on indefinitely down the hill turn after turn while seeming maintaining that consistent speed and cadence.

What about you? Are you trying to control speed with your turns or are you seeking to carry as much or more speed out of one turn into the next (when you can)?

If he's maintaining a consistent speed, then barring concerns of friction and presuming he isn't hitting terminal velocity, he *is* controlling his speed using the turns. Or, he's controlling his speed doing something. In that video, it is clear he's not going as fast as one possibly could ski on that slope.

I can't tell if this is just not a useful way to think about things for me, or if I just don't get it yet. I feel like when I sat in high school physics class and my teacher was trying to explain that velocity was not just speed, but speed and direction, and it made *zero* sense to me and I argued it to the ground ... and I eventually realized what he was talking about, but not that day and not that year.

Usually I'm trying to control speed in one way or another, in terms of just how fast I'm headed down the mountain. And I think most people are, because I don't see ski instructors flying down the hill at mach 10. I get the trampoline feeling - I had it today at various times - is that the result of skiing the slow line fast?

Is there a "my head hurts" smiley?

 

[Chris Geib]

I always liked Bob's phrasing here, and have no issue with it, but I think many get hung up on the definition of fast, ie is it speed or velocity or what. Because clearly Bob would go "faster" if he weren't turning, ie he would get to the bottom of the hill sooner. Assuming the existence of bottom-of-hill, which from that gif isn't really clear.

You’re in a tech thread again, is this gonna be a thing!

I suppose I can understand a hang-up with “fast” or “fast-er”. Just the concept of being on skis and going FAST might cause apprehension.

How about GOING vs SLOWING?? The skier’s attitude on the skis changes when their intent switches from trying to slow to trying to GO. This is very real and easy to see. We can easily imagine what Bob would look like in that gif if he were trying to slow down.

“…a slow enough line…” is an important little piece! I know you get that, but…

The assumption he would continue to go faster if he weren’t turning is interesting. I have been in numerous clinics with Bob when while standing high on the hill he asks the participants: “What would happen if from here we just go straight and do not turn?” Everyone asserts we would just continue to go faster and faster …and someone might bring up terminal velocity. Then Bob pushes off with his poles with a good shove straight toward the trees and traverses a few feet before stalling out. Line is important!

 

[SBrown]

The assumption he would continue to go faster if he weren’t turning is interesting. I have been in numerous clinics with Bob when while standing high on the hill he asks the participants: “What would happen if from here we just go straight and do not turn?” Everyone asserts we would just continue to go faster and faster …and someone might bring up terminal velocity. Then Bob pushes off with his poles with a good shove straight toward the trees and traverses a few feet before stalling out. Line is important!

Well, I did qualify with "to the bottom of the hill." But yes I see what you are saying.

That's also not to say that he isn't traveling faster (even while turning) than many would even while straightlining, either. But I don't think that's where Monique is struggling.

 

[KevinF]

As Bob likes to say, turning controls direction and direction controls speed.

That would seem like a minor distinction, but in the context of skiing the slow-line-fast, I think it's a very important distinction. You are free to ski your "line" as aggressively / fast as you want (or can...) because there is no way you can get going "too fast" (assuming you stay on your line).

As Chris mentioned above, pushing off straight can lead to final "speeds" of everywhere from stopped to terminal velocity. If you push off uphill, your speed is going to reduce to zero and very quickly. If you push off downhill, your speed will increase for quite a while. Turning, as Bob defines it, is all about choosing a direction to maintain a speed somewhere between "stopped" and "terminal velocity" at which you feel comfortable.

 

[Drahtguy Kevin]

As Bob likes to say, turning controls direction and direction controls speed.

That would seem like a minor distinction, but in the context of skiing the slow-line-fast, I think it's a very important distinction. You are free to ski your "line" as aggressively / fast as you want (or can...) because there is no way you can get going "too fast" (assuming you stay on your line).

As Chris mentioned above, pushing off straight can lead to final "speeds" of everywhere from stopped to terminal velocity. If you push off uphill, your speed is going to reduce to zero and very quickly. If you push off downhill, your speed will increase for quite a while. Turning, as Bob defines it, is all about choosing a direction to maintain a speed somewhere between "stopped" and "terminal velocity" at which you feel comfortable.

Well said, @KevinF. All that sunscreen you wear is protecting your brain as well as your skin. Or Maybe it's the yellow jacket that makes you so wise...

 

[Monique]

As Bob likes to say, turning controls direction and direction controls speed.

That would seem like a minor distinction, but in the context of skiing the slow-line-fast, I think it's a very important distinction. You are free to ski your "line" as aggressively / fast as you want (or can...) because there is no way you can get going "too fast" (assuming you stay on your line).

As Chris mentioned above, pushing off straight can lead to final "speeds" of everywhere from stopped to terminal velocity. If you push off uphill, your speed is going to reduce to zero and very quickly. If you push off downhill, your speed will increase for quite a while. Turning, as Bob defines it, is all about choosing a direction to maintain a speed somewhere between "stopped" and "terminal velocity" at which you feel comfortable.

I think this may help the most of all the explanations so far. But it does seem like a bit of language finessing.

 

[bbinder]

I struggled with this concept for years as well, because I spent too much time parsing the words as opposed to studying the movement.

 

[Monique]

I struggled with this concept for years as well, because I spent too much time parsing the words as opposed to studying the movement.

So - if the words don't make sense to me but the movement and the feel do, maybe I should just ignore the words?

 

[SBrown]

I struggled with this concept for years as well, because I spent too much time parsing the words as opposed to studying the movement.

That makes sense to me. I get it intuitively, not whatever-else-it-ively.

 

[UGASkiDawg]

Well it made perfect.sense to me the first I heard it and changed my skiing forever. ......thanks Bob!

 

[Chris Geib]

So - if the words don't make sense to me but the movement and the feel do, maybe I should just ignore the words?

If that's what works! And/or go with Kevin's explanation if it meshes.

I think this may help the most of all the explanations so far.

...Usually I'm trying to control speed in one way or another, in terms of just how fast I'm headed down the mountain...

What are those ways? Do you use "Direction" as Kevin explained it or "Friction"(skidding)? Or some of both? (which is OK!)

Slow Line Fast is using Direction(line) with minimal skidding while trying GO there.

 

[Chris Geib]

Well, I did qualify with "to the bottom of the hill."

I know. I knew you picked your words carefully.

Still it is true that most skiers default to and are focused on "down hill". Good skiers like you and Bob are focused on where you're going next (which often isn't down hill.)

 

[Blue Streak]

So - if the words don't make sense to me but the movement and the feel do, maybe I should just ignore the words?

I like my words, but they don't usually enhance our kinesthetic sense.

 

[Pete in Idaho]

Monique. Going to attempt to illustrate this concept without the technical aspects taking over. Some will pooh hoo my approach but this is sort of how I approach skiing since I stopped racing and instructing.

Pick an Intermediate run, preferable long and with a changing terrain (up and downs, knolls and sidehills etc.). Stop up top and take a real look at what is in front of you. Make a plan for skiing the run (as far as you can see) with a rythym and route that will require no braking. If you pick the right route you will (to not brake) have to use short, medium and long super g turns throughout the journey. When you lst try this lay out a plan that will let you ski fast as is comfortable and let you control your speed by the route you select. Use the terrain to control your speed with no braking. This will let you make short turns and then medium and long turns where you finish the turn to eliminate braking, it will be a combination of all your skills but can be done. Actually if you approach this right and with a plan it is really a FUN way to ski.

If I were to describe doing this - I would say you will FLOW down the mountain. When you ski to the point where you couldn't see this from the top then either stop and redo your route or continue on still skiing the slow line fast.

My opinions are mine alone and I am not talking any methodology just something I like to do. Try it.