What does "finishing your turns" mean?

[justaute]

Well that’s the equivalent of telling someone to ski to the bottom to catch the lift. You’re being deliberately obtuse. When you coached, surely you got people to do things without spelling out every little step.

Wow...you sure like to pick bones. Different situations/contexts call for different teaching/coaching methods. It's not binary, and I'm certainly not looking for n-th degrees of detail. Clearly, a simple, friendly conversation here goes nowhere. That said, I certainly appreciated the many positive, thoughtful inputs from many.

 

[razie]

Well, the idea is simple: the brain can interpolate and figure out what to do to change an outcome. The more experienced in the domain and the more specific the change, the better this works. However - did it figure out the "right" thing to do? Maybe... most often not, though: the brain likes to take shortcuts, especially when tired or compensating for other issues etc.

The Z vs C is one where this approach may generate some good changes, especially if you're trying to give someone a simple cue. At the same time, the long discussion in here demonstrates that it's actually not that simple to do it right...

YMMV as usual... but while movements are very important, relying on feelings is not a good idea and external cues like turn shape help a lot!

 

[Josh Matta]

Speed control is at the root of your problem. Things would be a lot easier if you just forgot about speed control and just thought about turning as a means of changing direction.
That being said, I fully understand why speed control is a focus of lessons. There are too many out of control meat missiles as it is.

I actually always teach slow line fast these days.....even people who want to go slow I simply tell them with slow line fast they can go slower if they still want to.

 

[JESinstr]

Speed control through turn shape is a result of controlling both radius and circumference. The implementation of carving skills is a prereq.

 

[James]

Speed control through turn shape is a result of controlling both radius and circumference. The implementation of carving skills is a prereq.

So beginners are carving?

 

[LiquidFeet]

Speed control through turn shape is a result of controlling both radius and circumference. The implementation of carving skills is a prereq.

I lead non-carvers of every age down the hill all the time making round turns that are fully completed. These skiers are not carving. Their skis' tails are not following their tips making pencil-thin tracks in the snow. All these novice and intermediate skiers need to be able to do for this lesson is turn left and right, and if we are on blue trails they need to be able to get their skis roughly parallel between turns.

They get their speed control from line (size and completion of the turns). They make round turns big and small, drawn-out oval turns that go across the hill, and incompleted turns in a narrow corridor. All this teaches them what shape turn makes the slowest descent. Speed control is a major part of what I am teaching. It's a simple lesson and very useful to them. I can address refining their turn mechanics as we do this if the skier is ready.

@JESinstr, why are you saying carving skills are required for controlling a turn's shape?

 

[JESinstr]

I lead non-carvers of every age down the hill all the time making round turns that are fully completed. These skiers are not carving. Their skis' tails are not following their tips making pencil-thin tracks in the snow. All these skiers need to be able to do is turn left and right, and if we are on blue trails they need to be able to get their skis roughly parallel between turns. They get their speed control from line (size and completion of the turns). This is a major part of what I am teaching them.

@JESinstr, why are you saying carving skills are required for controlling a turn's shape?

I don't want to get into a right/wrong conversation. I am just going to state my views based on the functional design of today's equipment from which I form my teaching methodologies.

Place a moving shaped ski on edge, add pressure to the center of shape (under the arch), and it will begin to create circular travel. This is what I call carving. Carving is NOT about making pencil thin tracks in the snow. It is about one's INTENT to convert straight line travel into circular travel and competently manage that process and the resulting forces to a controlled endpoint. There are pure carves and there are "sloppy" carves and everything in between. So if we have different definitions of what carving is I apologize.

You are either carving or you are not.... I like this saying because in a sport that is full of grays, this is truly a binary thought from which one can develop a fundamental approach.

Skis either slide in a straight line or they create a circular path. In between there is skidding which is a no man's land. Tell me, if your intent is to create a "turn shape" and your are skidding, when are you skidding into a carving state (circular path) and when are out skidding out? Answer that and you will start to understand how important intent and supporting movement patterns are.

If I looked at you leading a group of skiers down a slope, I wouldn't be thinking carving. Instead, I would be assessing them on being center balanced and if rotary is being implemented around the arch vs through the heels. Centered balance and rotary around the arch are a prereq to properly building the edge angles that take you into the carving state. BTW, I don't intentionally teach rotary. Rotary will find its way into the mix. I just make sure that when they do employ rotary, they are doing it around the arch.

@James YES! When a beginner holds a medium wedge shape and is center balanced, the very fact that the wedge puts them on their edges (the big arch side of their foot) completes the requirements for the ski to carve albeit toward each other. Contrary to what others may think, the key focus skill becomes learning pressure management to maintain equal pressure (through the arch) on both skis in order to go forward. I spend a fair amount of time using drills to get the beginner to develop pressure management ESPECIALLY the release of pressure. From there it is the independent management of pressure to each ski that results in the ski turning the skier aka carving.

If you can accept my definition of carving, why wouldn't you want to have a beginner experience the carving capability of their skis right from the get go?

 

[dbostedo]

If you can accept my definition of carving, why wouldn't you want to have a beginner experience the carving capability of their skis right from the get go?

I suspect under your definition, @LiquidFeet 's students are "carving".

And I think you are also, therefore, using a different definition of skidding. If you have a nice rounded turn shape where the ski is moving a bit laterally (not a clean pencil-thin carve) I might call that skidding, or a skidded turn. Are you saying that skidding is always in a straight line under your definition/usage?

Also, why use different definitions than the usual?

 

[LiquidFeet]

....Also, why use different definitions than the usual?

I'll second this question. Communication is so much easier if people don't have to argue about which person's definitions are "right." That becomes a power struggle, which side-tracks discussion of content. Definitions are all arbitrary anyway, and the most efficient definition is the best. That's the one that doesn't require defense, at least in this context.

In politics it may be a different situation.

 

[JESinstr]

I suspect under your definition, @LiquidFeet 's students are "carving".

And I think you are also, therefore, using a different definition of skidding. If you have a nice rounded turn shape where the ski is moving a bit laterally (not a clean pencil-thin carve) I might call that skidding, or a skidded turn. Are you saying that skidding is always in a straight line under your definition/usage?

Also, why use different definitions than the usual?

1. Why would you assume LF's students are carving? If they are rotating from the heel, they are redirecting the ski either in an effort to get the ski broadside braced to the pull of Gravity down the hill or, they are moving to their heels (which is what we do when standing) inhibiting the ability of the ski to continue a circular path. If they are centered balance and rotating through the arch, then the carving purity is determined by the ability to reduce the rotary, build edge angles and manage the resulting pressure. As I said, it is binary choice, brace or carve and at least the instructor now has something definitive to base their coaching on.

2. Skidding is the result of your mass trying to go in a straight line (Newton's law) while the skis (employing their functional design) are trying to create circular travel. If skidding, the issue is, are you trying (your intent) to create circular travel or are you failing in your intent. I would appreciate a consistent definition of skidding that simultaneously addresses the building of a turn vs the destruction of of a turn. Don't get me wrong, skidding is very much a integral part of skiing. It's just that skidding is either a component part of good intentions or the result of failed technique.

3. In terms of a "usual" definition of carving. This may be at the root of the problem. I have been in this game for a long time now. The technology has change dramatically and somehow we have not adapted/adjusted the new dynamics this technology brings in terms of the way we teach. We just keep on keeping on with the same ole, same ole.

 

[dbostedo]

Why would you assume LF's students are carving?

I didn't assume... I said I suspect. I think what @LiquidFeet was trying to say is that her students are doing good turns with circular travel, but with some amount of motion not directly along the length of the ski. In that case, by your definition as I understand it, they are carving.

I think pictures here would help, but I don't have anything handy or any way to make one right now. Let me put it this way, to again try to see if I understand... If I make a non-railroad track turn that has proper edge control and turn shape - i.e. I tip the skis but don't quite create a clean line - then that's still carving under your definition?

And if that IS carving, would you say that that's a carve that includes a small component of skidding?

 

[T-Square]

Well something I learned from @Bob Barnes.

Turn shape does not control speed. Line controls speed. Turn shape is the way we pick lines to control our speed.

Now as an engineer I over think everything. There has to be a differential equation that we can use to decide what turn to make to get a desired speed. All we need to do is know the weight of the skier, radius of the ski, snow density, coefficient of friction, terrain slope, ah, err, ... ... I think I’ll shut up now and slink away.

 

[James]

If you can accept my definition of carving, why wouldn't you want to have a beginner experience the carving capability of their skis right from the get go?

Your carving explanation doesn't match your statement:

You are either carving or you are not.... I like this saying because in a sport that is full of grays, this is truly a binary thought from which one can develop a fundamental approach.

Well, I guess if you're defining everything, you've created a nice Private Idaho.

I want the beginners to ski a path that will control their speed. Their "carving" usually means edge locked and big trouble. We don't have the luxury of riding out edge locks. You'll hit something or someone.

By common definition, which surely you learned decades ago, students making basic linked wedge turns are making skidded turns.

 

[Josh Matta]

Well something I learned from @Bob Barnes.

Turn shape does not control speed. Line controls speed. Turn shape is the way we pick lines to control our speed.

Now as an engineer I over think everything. There has to be a differential equation that we can use to decide what turn to make to get a desired speed. All we need to do is know the weight of the skier, radius of the ski, snow density, coefficient of friction, terrain slope, ah, err, ... ... I think I’ll shut up now and slink away.

all of that maybe accounts for .01 percent of speed control. Line is the other 99.9 percent ignore it.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I will not dilute the meaning of the word carving by using it to describe what my 6 year olds are doing in a wedge christie. Or my 35 year olds, either.

Just say no to this.

 

[Coach13]

I will not dilute the meaning of the word carving by using it to describe what my 6 year olds are doing in a wedge christie. Or my 35 year olds, either.

Just say no to this.

Most skiers aren’t carving even when they think they are.

 

[JESinstr]

I didn't assume... I said I suspect. I think what @LiquidFeet was trying to say is that her students are doing good turns with circular travel, but with some amount of motion not directly along the length of the ski. In that case, by your definition as I understand it, they are carving.

I think pictures here would help, but I don't have anything handy or any way to make one right now. Let me put it this way, to again try to see if I understand... If I make a non-railroad track turn that has proper edge control and turn shape - i.e. I tip the skis but don't quite create a clean line - then that's still carving under your definition?

And if that IS carving, would you say that that's a carve that includes a small component of skidding?

Yes to both, IMO carving is a process. It is the mechanics of making the ski TRAVEL in a circular path, not just redirection. The more you skid, the less you carve and vice versa. But you don't have to teach a return to straight line travel (skidding), that is the default. You do however, need to teach the carving process.

Many factors, including surface conditions, pitch, space, skill levels and yes, gates determine how much carving performance you can draw from a ski.

 

[JESinstr]

Most skiers aren’t carving even when they think they are.

And most skiers don't have the edge angles they think they have either.

 

[JESinstr]

I want the beginners to ski a path that will control their speed. Their "carving" usually means edge locked and big trouble. We don't have the luxury of riding out edge locks. You'll hit something or someone.

By common definition, which surely you learned decades ago, students making basic linked wedge turns are making skidded turns.

Please take the time to read what I posted to you above. Pressure management is the focus and will incorporate the issue of edge angles. The mechanics of the outside leg in a wedge is no different than that of the outside leg in parallel.

@James YES! When a beginner holds a medium wedge shape and is center balanced, the very fact that the wedge puts them on their edges (the big arch side of their foot) completes the requirements for the ski to carve albeit toward each other. Contrary to what others may think, the key focus skill becomes learning pressure management to maintain equal pressure (through the arch) on both skis in order to go forward. I spend a fair amount of time using drills to get the beginner to develop pressure management ESPECIALLY the release of pressure. From there it is the independent management of pressure to each ski that results in the ski turning the skier aka carving.

 

[Henry]

LF said, "I lead non-carvers of every age down the hill all the time making round turns that are fully completed."

Unsaid is that the students are undoubtedly taught how to start their turn correctly. A round turn, a fully completed turn, can not happen with a turn that isn't started correctly. It can be a skidded turn, or a brushed carve where the carving motions are made without locking the edges into the snow and speed is scrubbed off, or a pure carve. In any case, start correctly to (have a chance of) finishing correctly.