What does "finishing your turns" mean?

[James]

Please take the time to read what I posted to you above. Pressure management is the focus and will incorporate the issue of edge angles. The mechanics of the outside leg in a wedge is no different than that of the outside leg in parallel.

I’ve read it. It comes down to your definition is skidding means one is not traveling in a circular (or some curve type) path, but goes straight. Eg, they are producing no centripetal force. That’s drifting.

Unless I’ve got it wrong, you can correct, you are unique in your view. I don’t doubt you make things work. On snow the discussion would likely be different.

 

[CalG]

I’ve read it. It comes down to your definition is skidding means one is not traveling in a circular (or some curve type) path, but goes straight. Eg, they are producing no centripetal force. That’s drifting.
Unless I’ve got it wrong, you can correct, you are unique in your view.

Ooooh! DRIFTING? That's a seldom heard expression in the ski lingo.

 

[JESinstr]

I’ve read it. It comes down to your definition is skidding means one is not traveling in a circular (or some curve type) path, but goes straight. Eg, they are producing no centripetal force. That’s drifting.

Unless I’ve got it wrong, you can correct, you are unique in your view. I don’t doubt you make things work. On snow the discussion would likely be different.

Skidding is not going straight. That's called sliding. Skidding is a transitional state between circular travel and straight line travel. It creates a dynamic ratio between centripetal force and straight line force. If the skier is building a circular path, then the CF to SLF ratio increases and all is good in terms of the ability to control turn shape. If a skier wants to continue the turn they began but lacks the skills and mechanics to manage and sustain it, that ratio flips, the ability to control turn shape is lost and most of the time the skier will employ a bracing technique as a means to control their speed.

Now, in the hands of a trained skier/racer, the ability to regulate the skidding ratio makes all the difference. But the question remains, is it the learned ability to create circular travel (carving) or the lack of ability that turns skidding a viable entity. The Stivot is an excellent example.

So back to my point, the ability to create and sustain circular travel is essential to turn shape. So why shouldn't we be addressing it at the beginner level rather than later when bad habits will need to be broken?

 

[LiquidFeet]

 

[Skitechniek]

Circular travel as a definition of carving is quite a strange definition of carving imho.

Imho carving (and what you get taught while racing) means tips follows tails. Which means you are using the sidecut and camber of the ski. If you are skidding you are only using its camber and not the sidecut.

Circular travel due to skidding occurs when FS2 > FS1. FS1 is the resultant force of the impacting snow acting on the tail end of the ski. FS2 is the resultant force of the impacting snow acting on the leading end of the ski. When a skier skids around a turn, a reverse camber in the skies causes the skis to self-steer. Due to the curvature of the skis, the snow impacts the skis at different angles along its length. This causes the skis to self steer.

What's stated above means you simply cannot steer a ski due to rotary. Edging is always required to activate the self steering effect. Even someone who only tail kicks the ski's away with their heels or even upper body makes a turn because they push their skis on edge, even though the edge angle is extremely low.

The physics of carving is completely different to that.

This is me doing short turns on gs 35m:

This is not carving to me even though there is circular travel around the fall line due to tipping the ski on edge. This is skidding. Physics says so. If I would activate the sidecut on that ski the turn would be much much bigger.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Relative to what @Skitechniek just posted is this post by @Jamt from 2018:

The outside ski to outside ski drill.

I'd like to see that too.

www.pugski.com

In it he explains what you see in this graphic "I think there is a common misunderstanding that the tail brushes or "washes" out in a brushed turn and that the tip is not. It is actually the other way around. Since the ski is bent the tail part is more aligned in the skiing direction than the tip. This picture illustrates nicely."

In a later post jamt says this about the moment when the ski starts carving during a stivot. Maybe this is related to what we are talking about here, maybe it isn't. Posting it anyway:
"In a GS stivot the intent is to reduce speed and go a straighter line. In SL it is just about making the line, you cannot "carve" it.
You don't really have to do anything to redirect the tips. As more and more of the tail gets in the groove the tail will have more grip and the tips will snap out to carve the groove."

 

[JESinstr]

The physics of carving is completely different to that.

This is me doing short turns on gs 35m:

This is not carving to me even though there is circular travel around the fall line due to tipping the ski on edge. This is skidding. Physics says so. If I would activate the sidecut on that ski the turn would be much much bigger.

Hmmm let me see. You are balanced through the arch, you are creating angles from the bottom up. Your pelvis is countered to stand properly against the outside ski, your upper body is seperated, vertical and stable. If you are not in a carving state, what state are you in? If you say a skidding state, please define skidding so that it has a single meaning in relation to the task at hand.

So I am not allowed to teach the basics of these body mechanics to beginners until they become racers?

 

[dbostedo]

So I am not allowed to teach the basics of these body mechanics to beginners until they become racers?

Why are you asking this? Because he used the typical definition of carving and you're applying your definition to what he said perhaps?

 

[JESinstr]

Relative to what @Skitechniek just posted is this post by @Jamt from 2018:

The outside ski to outside ski drill.

I'd like to see that too.

www.pugski.com

In it he explains what you see in this graphic "I think there is a common misunderstanding that the tail brushes or "washes" out in a brushed turn and that the tip is not. It is actually the other way around. Since the ski is bent the tail part is more aligned in the skiing direction than the tip. This picture illustrates nicely."
View attachment 89143

In a later post jamt says this about the moment when the ski starts carving during a stivot. Maybe this is related to what we are talking about here, maybe it isn't. Posting it anyway:
"In a GS stivot the intent is to reduce speed and go a straighter line. In SL it is just about making the line, you cannot "carve" it.
You don't really have to do anything to redirect the tips. As more and more of the tail gets in the groove the tail will have more grip and the tips will snap out to carve the groove."

LF, to your first comments.
If your assumption is that the skier is applying proper biomechanics then you and Jamt is correct. Remember the center if shape (under the arch) is aft of the center of the ski so that makes sense. But if the biomechanics lead to heel based balance and rotation then indeed the backs of the ski wash out.

As to Jamt's "moment when the ski starts carving " yes, that is exactly what I am trying to talk about. Carving is a function of the ski not a designated type of turn. A ski can be "carving" at any time during a "ski turn" . The question one needs to contemplate is if the carving action is intentional or not. And if the skier isn't instilled with the proper biomechanics to make a ski carve, we know what the answer is.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....As to Jamt's "moment when the ski starts carving " yes, that is exactly what I am trying to talk about. Carving is a function of the ski not a designated type of turn. A ski can be "carving" at any time during a "ski turn" . The question one needs to contemplate is if the carving action is intentional or not. And if the skier isn't instilled with the proper biomechanics to make a ski carve, we know what the answer is.

Jamt was talking about a stivot, wherein the skis skid sideways across the snow, then fully engage and carve (using the regular definition not yours - tails following tips making thin tracks) past the gate.

I agree with you that learning to carve (the regular definition) requires specific biomechanics. Without the precision of those biomechanics, the carve (regular definition) doesn't happen.

A "brushed carve" (PMTS term) uses the same biomechanics as a carve (the regular definition not yours) but allows the platform angle to be insufficient for tails to follow tips and make thin tracks in the snow. As far as I know PMTS does not use the term "platform angle" but PSIA doesn't do much with it either or more people here would understand its role.

 

[pchewn]

Pat's definitions:
Carving is the ski's motion along it's length when set on edge.
Skidding is the ski's motion width-wise.

Pat's hypothesis:
A skier is rarely (if ever) turning using 100% carving or 100% skidding.

Pat's examples:
A skier who is holding his edge in a straight traverse is "carving straight" nearly 100%
A skier who is side slipping is skidding nearly 100%
Even the best skiers trying their utmost on the most perfect snow will still have some degree of skidding in their "carved" turns. (Due to ski vibrations, imperfections of the snow, skill imperfections, etc....)

 

[Skitechniek]

@JESinstr
Teach whatever you want lol. I am just curious about your definition of carving.

You look at the biomechanics, I look at the physics. If we took biomechanics as the parameter to define carving the term carving would lose its value. It would mean the same as circular travel. But the biomechanics of technically correct snowplowing hardly differs from the biomechanics of a World Cup athlete in a race course. So everything from snowplowing to world cup skiing would be carving. That seems kind of odd to me.

The reason I am skidding there is because there has been a rotary force that caused the ski to point in a direction that was different from the initial velocity vi. It is impossible to skid if you perfectly tip the ski on edge. There has to be some rotary, even if it is just a centimeter in order to start skidding. So in that sense you could say edge lock carving is biomechanically different from skidded turns.

 

[pchewn]

There has to be some rotary, even if it is just a centimeter in order to start skidding.

I can skid without rotary. It's called a sideslip. I THINK I can do the equivalent when in a turn. (i.e. skidding without adding or subtracting rotation)

 

[Tom K.]

Isn't skidding simply defined as "the sound an out of control snowboarder makes when coming up behind me rapidly"?

You know it when you hear it!

 

[Skitechniek]

@pchewn
Fair enough haha, but I was talking about turns here. So, no you can't skid without rotary (apart from side slipping). Physics says you can't. You just don't feel that you apply a rotary force, cause very little is needed. Try skidded turns on one ski, you'll feel it better

 

[James]

I’m totally confident I could do basic wedge turns, on normal eastern firm surface, with bindings screwed to 1 x 4 boards chin to head high. No sidecut, no camber. I would require a curved up tip so I don’t bite it.

Simply putting a straight board at an angle to a slope will create a steering effect. Then as you’re moving, it’s at an angle to your movement. Partly because of no camber, most of the turning force might be under the foot.

I’d use line to control speed.

Skidding is not going straight. That's called sliding. Skidding is a transitional state between circular travel and straight line travel. It creates a dynamic ratio between centripetal force and straight line force. If the skier is building a circular path, then the CF to SLF ratio increases and all is good in terms of the ability to control turn shape. If a skier wants to continue the turn they began but lacks the skills and mechanics to manage and sustain it, that ratio flips, the ability to control turn shape is lost and most of the time the skier will employ a bracing technique as a means to control their speed.

I agree with most of that I think save definitions. Skidding- we’ve been using shorthand for skidded turns, dropping “turn”. So skidding could also not be a turn. “Sliding” - hah, that’s more complicated or simple. Hard to tell. I can slide sideways or lengthwise, we also use it as a generic catch all for skiing and snowboarding.

The bracing part- People will brace, goaway from downhill. Usually it just takes all weight off the downhill ski and they just go downhill. They can have that ski at nearly 90 deg direction of travel and it does nothing.

Pat's examples:
A skier who is holding his edge in a straight traverse is "carving straight" nearly 100%

Who’s Pat, you?
Rethink that definition. You cannot go straight across a slope without skidding. You are actually skidding/slipping the whole time. That’s how you make a straight line. If you carve across the slope, you’ll go uphill in an arc.

 

[Skitechniek]

Putting an entirely straight board at an angle will definitely not create turning forces (entirely straight meaning no camber, no sidecut, no curved up tip).

With a curved up tip there will be some turning forces, because the angle of the ski on the slope will not be the same along the length, which creates a net torque. It has the same effect as camber. Turning forces are created due to reversed camber btw, I said camber cause I thought that would be clear enough. A curved up tip = basically reversed camber.

Sure you could make turns on skis without shape and camber, it would just not be circular travel.

 

[James]

Sure you could make turns on skis without shape and camber, it would just not be circular travel.

So, you don’t think we could do round turns with boards?
The tip issue is something. Maybe we could make a safety tip to that does not engage the snow.
Or, just taper the board and bevel it up.

By circular, you mean geometrically circular?
What evidence is there that most turns are actually geometrically circle arcs?

 

[JESinstr]

@James I think we are about as close as we can get and I appreciate that. Carving, skidding, sliding are the 3 things a ski can do. They all have a place in any maneuver the skier is trying to accomplish. Each requires a specific set of movement patterns. There is little one has to learn to slide. There is much one has to learn to carve. Skidding is the ability to manage the skis between the two.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@JamesCarving, skidding, sliding are the 3 things a ski can do. They all have a place in any maneuver the skier is trying to accomplish. Each requires a specific set of movement patterns. There is little one has to learn to slide. There is much one has to learn to carve. Skidding is the ability to manage the skis between the two.

I like this. Something we agree on - finally!