What does "finishing your turns" mean?

[martyg]

I've heard and read this same subject being argued so many times that this morning when I encountered it again I was reminded of the carnival barker spinning the wheel of chance and shouting: "Around and around she goes, and where she stops nobody knows!"

Geez. I dunno. There’s no augment in PSIA or USSA clinics and exams.

I guess that it depends what your source of the truth is.

 

[razie]

"Around and around she goes, and where she stops nobody knows!"

oh no - we know exactly where she stops: with the skis across the hill !

... the real question is how she got there...

 

[justaute]

@justaute If you are not completing your turns, the odds are (like a majority of intermediates and many "Advanced") that your focus on speed control is getting to a "Broadside" bracing position against the force that is creating the speed ie Gravity pulling you down the hill. To this end, you are most likely ending up pushing your heels. What you need to do is find a coach that understands that skis are designed to convert that that straight line force in to circular travel and will teach you the centered balanced fundamentals of making that happen. We call this process carving.

Exactly.

That's why I made the posting. As a former collegiate athlete (track & field) -- where mechanics and execution were paramount to me -- I tend to ask a lot of questions. When people say you need to turn in the shapes of C and S, to me, that's an outcome or output. I want to know what are the inputs, the how, and the steps to execute -- I think I'm getting there, albeit slower than I had hoped.

 

[James]

When people say you need to turn in the shapes of C and S, to me, that's an outcome or output. I want to know what are the inputs, the how, and the steps to execute -- I think I'm getting there, albeit slower than I had hoped.

Surely at some point in track you had coaching that was not just steps to execute. What events?

You actually can change a lot by simply changing the turn shape from z’s to a rounded shape. There’s thousands of words, with their possible confusion, eliminated.
Skiing likely has more in common with dance than track/field.
“Carving” in itself has little to do with finishing turns.

 

[justaute]

I threw javelin in college and also coached women's D1 volleyball. Did my coach need to tell me that I needed to throw the javelin far? Really?

I was not comparing track & field to skiing, but merely pointing out the importance of mechanics. As in many things/disciplines, there are many who can perform well, but can't effectively teach. My point was that by merely telling people to turn in whatever shape is not sufficient.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Exactly.

That's why I made the posting. As a former collegiate athlete (track & field) -- where mechanics and execution were paramount to me -- I tend to ask a lot of questions. When people say you need to turn in the shapes of C and S, to me, that's an outcome or output. I want to know what are the inputs, the how, and the steps to execute -- I think I'm getting there, albeit slower than I had hoped.

OK, I'll play. You want to know how to make C-shaped turns, instead of Z-shaped turns?
First, watch this video:
It describes C-shaped turns. There are two lines, the line the center of mass travels, and the line the feet travel. One line is longer, that's the line along which the feet travel. That's the C-shaped line you are asking about. The other line is shorter. It's the one the center of mass travels. For simplicity, think of the center of mass as the center (ish) of your torso.

Notice that the CoM line and the ski line criss-cross each other. This is the critical point in a C-shaped turn that you want to make happen.

Technique wise, you will need to learn how to get your center of mass to cross over the skis to their downhill side. Or, alternatively, you will need to learn how to get your skis to cross up under your center of mass, which by default also results in the center of mass being on the downhill side of the skis.

While you are busy doing this criss-cross thing, your skis/feet will need to travel across the hill - pointing more-or-less at the trees - for a bit. After the switcheroo happens, you must make sure your skis progressively (slo-mo if necessary) turn to point downhill. Do not quickly pivot them; that makes a Z-shaped turn. This is probably what you are currently doing.

The skis may be flattish after the switch if your CoM doesn't completely get on the downhill side of the skis, or they may be on their new downhill edges if it does. That's the goal, anyway. Which happens (flattish or on new edges at the top of the turn) depends on how you get the cross-over or cross-under to happen.

In any event, your turns will as a result have a top to them. They won't be Z-shaped any more. The tops won't be rushed nor cut off. The turns will be completed (aka finished), and they will be C-shaped. Because your skis spent time going across the hill, you'll have extra speed control... so yes, one can add speed control at the top of the turn. If you successfully get skis onto new edges above the fall line, your skis will grip better below it. So there's even more speed control available at the bottom of the turn (especially on hard snow), instead of having the skis skid downhill out of control downhill at the end of the Z-turns.

You'll need an instructor to teach you how to initiate C-shaped turns. People can actually get ideological about how to do this and argue. Get ready for the fun.

 

[justaute]

Thanks for the input, @LiquidFeet. This is what I've been working on since yesterday morning. Went worked on it again. I'm getting smoother.

 

[HardDaysNight]

I want to know what are the inputs, the how, and the steps to execute

My point was that by merely telling people to turn in whatever shape is not sufficient.

You’re entirely right. Decent coaching/instruction, especially for adults, should include detailed descriptions and demonstrations of how to move and when and what the result on ski performance will be. Generic babble.... make rounder turns, complete your turns, control speed at the top of your turns, etc...is worthless without actual instruction on the movement patterns that will enable the pupil to achieve these goals. The reason it’s often not provided is that most instructors don’t have the faintest idea how to do achieve these themselves, let alone teach them.

 

[Josh Matta]

going out and attempting to turn in a S shape typically leads to better skills with out saying anything else about tactics or skills. in fact despite all this talks about skills honestly someone skiing the proper path typically does a ton to make people move more skillfully with out ever saying anything, for some casual students with limited brain space this is all I might do. For dedicated students I will probably explain ideas like inside leg tipping/flexxing and pressure managment.

 

[justaute]

Good words, @Josh Matta.

As it turns out, I'm a DHP, or Dirty Heel Pusher. Haha. Time to get clean.

Dirty Heel Pusher - what does it mean?

I have seen posters use this term. What does it mean? And How do you know if you are one? Is it terminal?

www.pugski.com

 

[JESinstr]

going out and attempting to turn in a S shape typically leads to better skills with out saying anything else about tactics or skills. in fact despite all this talks about skills honestly someone skiing the proper path typically does a ton to make people move more skillfully with out ever saying anything, for some casual students with limited brain space this is all I might do. For dedicated students I will probably explain ideas like inside leg tipping/flexxing and pressure managment.

It's hard for me to imagine many developing needed skill by watching a animation. I got value out of the infinity video only because I can do it and it is more of a affirmation than a learning tool.

The irony and conundrum is that the faster the ski goes in search of circular travel the more your mass wants it to go straight. This is why the easily initiated circular travel at transition soon breaks down as the skier builds pressure into the belly of the turn and they (mostly out of fear) resort to bracing through the heel to control speed vs remaining solidly balanced through the arch. It is only a matter of a few inches from the arch to the heel but it doesn't take long until the heel becomes a sustainable and survivable base of support.

 

[Coach13]

To me it means not rushing my turn out of the fall line. I see a lot of folks doing what I call windshield wiper turns, which I think is the result of doing just that.

 

[Michael V]

so many good answers... to me a turn is finished when I move to my new edge.
I think it might be better to say, "start your turns..." too many skiers start too late... The new turn starts as you transition through the fall line...

 

[François Pugh]

Speed control is at the root of your problem. Things would be a lot easier if you just forgot about speed control and just thought about turning as a means of changing direction.
That being said, I fully understand why speed control is a focus of lessons. There are too many out of control meat missiles as it is.

 

[justaute]

Just posting this as an observation. I'm in no position to assess the validity of the referenced technique/s.

This is a good one, I think. I have watched several of his instructional videos and they all make sense, including this one -- I am one of those people who have been doing the Z turns because I did not know how to better control my speed. However, in this video, although he highlights several issues and provids a sage advice, he did not share the "how" in more detail.

A commenter, JB91710, posted the below comments, correctly or not.
"What to do, not how to do it. Typical! Nobody knows how to TEACH skiing! "How to control your speed." Would you skiers like to know the answer that he was incapable of giving? This is your lucky day. When you are making connected GS turns down the hill, you have to remember that the steering wheel and brake pedal are on your inside hip. The hip of your unweighted foot. When you get off your downhill foot to start the next turn, the more you push your hip into the turn and your upper body (from your kneecaps up) down the hill, the steeper your leg angle, the more your ski is on the inside edge, the more the ski can bend, the sharper they will turn. You regulate your speed by the amount you move your hip into the turn and your knees and upper body forward and down the hill."

 

[dbostedo]

^^^
I'm not an instructor either... but in most (all?) of my lessons, turning starts with the feet and tipping your skis. The hip moving inside is a result - an outcome, not an input, per se. You should not be thinking that you ski from the kneecaps up - everything starts from the kneecaps down.

That instructor does all the lesson videos for Elate Media Ski School on YouTube...

Ski School by Elate Media

How to Ski Lessons, Tutorials, Technique, Skiing and Sports films

www.youtube.com

They're not bad, but probably still don't go into the "how" in the depth you're looking for. But some of the drills videos may help with that. I've watched them all... I'd say watch Intermediate Lesson 4 (Turn shape, Edging, Line Choice, Arm and Body Position). Actually, I'd say watch them all - they're a nice reference and mostly good, even if there is some disagreement here on how actually good they are.

 

[justaute]

^^^
I'm not an instructor either... but in most (all?) of my lessons, turning starts with the feet and tipping your skis. The hip moving inside is a result - an outcome, not an input, per se. You should not be thinking that you ski from the kneecaps up - everything starts from the kneecaps down.

That instructor does all the lesson videos for Elate Media Ski School on YouTube...

Ski School by Elate Media

How to Ski Lessons, Tutorials, Technique, Skiing and Sports films

www.youtube.com

They're not bad, but probably still don't go into the "how" in the depth you're looking for. But some of the drills videos may help with that. I've watched them all... I'd say watch Intermediate Lesson 4 (Turn shape, Edging, Line Choice, Arm and Body Position). Actually, I'd say watch them all - they're a nice reference and mostly good, even if there is some disagreement here on how actually good they are.

Yes, I've seen most of his videos with Elate Media. Like you, I think his videos are helpful.

 

[Mike King]

Here's my recent focus with my students: turn symmetry. That's not right and left -- it is top and bottom. That is, the top of the turn looks like the bottom. If you spread the turn out evenly over the top to fall line and fall line to edge change, there's a lot of good that happens. First, the ski is way more engaged. Second, you can actually start to obtain speed control (skidding) before the fall line. The turns are round. And pressure is spread out over the turn, with less of a spike.

Mike

 

[James]

I threw javelin in college and also coached women's D1 volleyball. Did my coach need to tell me that I needed to throw the javelin far? Really?

Well that’s the equivalent of telling someone to ski to the bottom to catch the lift. You’re being deliberately obtuse. When you coached, surely you got people to do things without spelling out every little step.

Maybe @martyg can give you an analogy from coaching kayaking(?) that isn’t mechanics based but changes people’s mechanics.

It’s a concept.
Yet it changes inputs. A round turn will have different inputs over time than a z shaped one.
@Josh Matta laid it out.

That video you posted above about speed control - overly complicated, and lends itself to totally the wrong interpretation. There’s also no need to slow down - by doing something, before the turn.

In general-
Control speed through line.
To go slower, bring the line across or even uphill. Glide through the turn. You are not trying to slow down during the turn, it’s the path you follow that will slow you down or speed you up. You can change the path at anytime.

Obviously, if you have to, or want to, you can slowdown by other means.

Btw, lots of people just ski a fast line because it’s easy and they’re comfortable with the speed. They can’t ski a slower line fast cause they can’t turn well. They never really learn to turn cause they don’t turn much.

You’ll sometimes hear watching a wcup race something like “they’re really hacking through this section”

You can come to a stop next to someone and yet you’re never actually trying to slow down. This usually involves going below them and coming up. Gravity and friction do all the work. Try it, it’s fun.

 

[razie]

Btw, lots of people just ski a fast line because it’s easy and they’re comfortable with the speed. They can’t ski a slower line fast cause they can’t turn well. They never really learn to turn cause they don’t turn much.

Unrelated:

What is the difference between turn shape and line? In a course the line is different from turn shape, by basically moving the same turn shape in space and time in relation to the gate, so you can have both different lines and (slightly) different turn shapes at the same gate, but in freeskiing what is the difference?

By turn shape I am thinking just the basic full turn, half turn, quarter turn etc... in freeskiing there is more variety with lack of turning (i.e. bigger radius than nominal), but if the turn is complete across the hill (like a full turn) that dictates the line as well, if there is no reason to delay between turns? Or are you thinking in terms of tactics in relation to terrain? Or is it simply the way one connects different turn shapes?