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Terry
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@LiquidFeet That makes sense and it sounds like we now have two phrases then that mean the same thing...
"Control speed with turn shape"
"Finish your turns"

Speed is not controlled by turn shape. The line you pick controls speed. You use turn shape to pick the lines you want that will then control your speed. I realize this is a fine point but it is important. A line has a potential for a certain maximum speed based upon the speed entering the line, the acceleration potential that the line has due to gravity, and the friction, both wind and snow, on the skier. Thus the same turn shape on a black diamond will result in faster speeds then the identical turn shape on green terrain. Whereas lines having the same slope on any terrain will have the same acceleration potential.
 

Pete in Idaho

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Bracing against the outside ski is partially how you make a turn (although I wouldn't put it this way) but really has nothing to do with finishing a turn. To not get into a word game etc. try this instead.

choose a run that has a clearly defined fall line and make turns that are the same but never pick up speed, keep the same speed from the lst turn to the last turn. In accomplishing this you will feel finishing a turn because if you break off your turns you will pick up speed. When I do this am usually making med radius turns and performing this exercise really makes you aware of your turn proficiencyt or lack thereof.
 

Seldomski

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Bracing against the outside ski is partially how you make a turn (although I wouldn't put it this way) but really has nothing to do with finishing a turn. To not get into a word game etc. try this instead.

choose a run that has a clearly defined fall line and make turns that are the same but never pick up speed, keep the same speed from the lst turn to the last turn. In accomplishing this you will feel finishing a turn because if you break off your turns you will pick up speed. When I do this am usually making med radius turns and performing this exercise really makes you aware of your turn proficiencyt or lack thereof.

Yes, this is exactly what I interpret it to mean now. I wish this is how it was explained initially. The short phrase 'finish your turns' was not properly interpreted the first several lessons I heard it (sad).
 

pchewn

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Yes, this is exactly what I interpret it to mean now. I wish this is how it was explained initially. The short phrase 'finish your turns' was not properly interpreted the first several lessons I heard it (sad).

I agree completely. The short phrase 'finish your turns' is a terrible way to say 'turn further across/up the hill to control your speed' . To me "Finish" is a binary thing -- you have either finished or you have not. To apply the word "Finish" to something graduated does not seem right to me.
 

SpauldingSmails

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Speed is not controlled by turn shape. The line you pick controls speed. You use turn shape to pick the lines you want that will then control your speed. I realize this is a fine point but it is important. A line has a potential for a certain maximum speed based upon the speed entering the line, the acceleration potential that the line has due to gravity, and the friction, both wind and snow, on the skier. Thus the same turn shape on a black diamond will result in faster speeds then the identical turn shape on green terrain. Whereas lines having the same slope on any terrain will have the same acceleration potential.
I wouldn't say it's a fine point. I think it's an excellent clarification. Good stuff.
 
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CalG

CalG

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I would say a "finished turn" is one in which the previous turn is released into the next, only after significant acceleration forces are felt by the skier. Forces that are counter to the gravitational pull of the fall line.

(Perhaps it is not appropriate to comment on ones own OP ;-)
 

Doby Man

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I wouldn't say it's a fine point. I think it's an excellent clarification. Good stuff.

When you consider that line and turn shape are both representative of the exact same thing, the path of the ski, none of those points are held true. I know that in racing, even though they are the same thing, one is typically used in reference to the context of distance and the other use typically used in reference to the context of speed in which case I would say that LF is not incorrect in her statement. Based on how terminology is defined and used in the coaching and instruction industry and related media, it is difficult to impossible to establish a term’s specifically correct use. When common term choices such as “line” vs “shape”, “push” vs “pressure” overlap into controversy, there is no high authority in existence that determines exactly how these terms are to be used. I have read enough manuals and authors to know that this is indeed the case. It really doesn’t matter what country we are in, whether we are a race coach, mogul coach, PSIS or CSIA instructor. Subsequently, all we have to rely on for accurate communication is context management, fluency of expression and writing skill such as the ability to compose a correct complex compound sentence inherent to the technical writing that is typically reserved for discussions on biomechanics. Though, I do realize that this is the "internet" so we can forget about that.
 

Chris V.

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That sounds easy, but for skiers who do not typically finish/complete their turns it can be quite the technical challenge. "Degree of turn finish" is a real thing. 90 degrees means you are moving perpendicularly across the fall line before you start the new turn. 100 degrees means you are going uphill before you start a new turn. 45 degrees, well, you're heading diagonally downhill when you start the new turn. 0 degrees is you are heading straight down the fall line without turning. I still remember the sense of fear and insecurity the first few times I tried to start a new turn after getting to 90 degrees... that fear is gone now but it was certainly real when I was a new adult skier.

45 degrees of turn finish is the comfort zone for many skiers - on groomers.

"You want me to do WHAT? Tip my skis over so the bases are facing UPHILL???"
 

Jamt

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When you consider that line and turn shape are both representative of the exact same thing, the path of the ski, none of those points are held true. I know that in racing, even though they are the same thing, one is typically used in reference to the context of distance and the other use typically used in reference to the context of speed in which case I would say that LF is not incorrect in her statement. Based on how terminology is defined and used in the coaching and instruction industry and related media, it is difficult to impossible to establish a term’s specifically correct use. When common term choices such as “line” vs “shape”, “push” vs “pressure” overlap into controversy, there is no high authority in existence that determines exactly how these terms are to be used. I have read enough manuals and authors to know that this is indeed the case. It really doesn’t matter what country we are in, whether we are a race coach, mogul coach, PSIS or CSIA instructor. Subsequently, all we have to rely on for accurate communication is context management, fluency of expression and writing skill such as the ability to compose a correct complex compound sentence inherent to the technical writing that is typically reserved for discussions on biomechanics. Though, I do realize that this is the "internet" so we can forget about that.
For me it is a bigger difference when I free ski than when I run gates.
When I free ski and think line I determine where I will have the next apex, and how tight the turn will be, in terms of the pressure felt. I don't care so much on how I got there. I just trust my ingrained movements.
When I think shape I experiment with the shape of the turn, I don't care so much about where the next apex happens, but I experiment a lot with what movements make what happen.
Often it means I try to finish the turn as little as possible without losing speed control.
 

Doby Man

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For me it is a bigger difference when I free ski than when I run gates.
When I free ski and think line I determine where I will have the next apex, and how tight the turn will be, in terms of the pressure felt. I don't care so much on how I got there. I just trust my ingrained movements.
When I think shape I experiment with the shape of the turn, I don't care so much about where the next apex happens, but I experiment a lot with what movements make what happen.
Often it means I try to finish the turn as little as possible without losing speed control.

Jamt, you make a good distinction in carrying the discussion further along. The term “line” is typically used in reference to the direction taken between and relevant to external markers such as race gates and moguls which reflects a strategy more focused on distance than speed as a “shorter” or “longer” line through the gates or moguls. Shape is usually referenced in the context of building and dissipating the forces of the turn. Both are equally relevant to speed but from different frames of reference depending on the context of discussion.
 

Pete in Idaho

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Doby Man, if I thought and tried to do all the stuff you state above, I would never get down the hill. A helicopter would have to come up and take me away to the mental ward in the sky. Just Do It. ;)
 

justaute

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FWIW and perhaps this might help others.

Reviving an old thread. I'm likely a high-intermediate skier as this is my 2nd full season, with 14 days under my belt so far. As a former collegiate athlete, and having a former ski Olympian as a good friend, I have been lucky in picking up this sport quickly; however, IMO, I'm not progressing as fast as I would like and constantly asking questions about "why". People/instructor/friend would often say to me "finish your turn" or turn in the shape of "C" and "S", etc -- to which I'd always ask "how?" I get the concept theoretically, but what are the steps to help me execute such a movement?

Well, this morning, I had a 2-hour private lesson at Snowbasin. The instructor, Tyler, told me I skied pretty fast, but tend to "dump" speed at the end of each turn by skidding, which is the reason why I turn in more of a "Z" shape. He told me the usual answer of turning in "C" shape, and of course I asked him how. Then, he said, "you need to manage your speed by controlling your skis, don't let them control you." He asked me to control my speed at the beginning and throughout the turn, so I won't have to "dump" all that speed at the end of a turn -- just before another turn -- and thus be able to make the shaped turn much easier. I controlled my exit speed by keeping the pressure on the outside/downhill ski. I had always initiated a turn by pressuring the outside ski, but didn't stay with it and would let up the pressure a bit. Well, this worked for me. Toward the end of my lesson, I was able to smooth out my turns and make them look more like "C" and "S".

Tyler said anyone can go, or try to go, fast and thus mask all the technical deficiencies. I wanted control and be able to use a combination of techniques when encountering different conditions/terrains -- like today, powder on top of crust. Gotta keep on practicing and incorporate these tips.

Thanks for reading.
 

Rod9301

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It sounds to me that you were controlling the speed at the end of the turn, but the beginning.


This is right though, if you end the turn with low speed, you can control the turn shape easier

Sorry to contradict your instructor, but there's no way to control your speed at the beginning of the turn. You will accelerate as your skis go to and thru the fall line.
But if you finished your turn with the skis more across the fall line, thus slower speed, you will have less speed in the fall line, less scary
 

CoPow

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"finishing" the turn means just that, finishing the turn... Your downhill ski gets the kick, finishing the turn, and you get on the new outside ski...
 

markojp

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It sounds to me that you were controlling the speed at the end of the turn, but the beginning.


This is right though, if you end the turn with low speed, you can control the turn shape easier

Sorry to contradict your instructor, but there's no way to control your speed at the beginning of the turn..

Cool. I was wondering why I've shaped the top of my turns all these years when I can just go straight and jam'em at the end.... wait a minute, that jamming takes more effort. Crap. Back to C's...

(There's a reason races aren't won skiing straight at gates, but I think though you know this and are forgetting to mention slowing down transitions in recreational skiing that can have nice payoffs when one is coached to be over the outside ski with a lower edge angle at the end of the turn than at apex. )
 
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razie

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@justaute you make C turns by getting the skis out of the fall line, get them to point more across the hill, as you balance on the ski as it turns, as opposed to jamming your heels into a mini hockey stop, which gets them redirected quickly into Z turns. Think of it as a balance issue - where you focus on staying balanced with the ski longer as opposed of just hopping off the ski as soon as you land on it. Balancing on a ski is easier when carving it, i.e. having a platform, but controlling the speed is harder when carving... so you could go back to a green run if needed, to practice some balance.

Controlling speed is an interesting equation - basically, the less the skis point down, the less you accelerate - so turn shape controls speed. At the same time, the lesser the ski-snow interaction, the less you slow down, so where you create stronger ski-snow interaction (pressure) also matters... Pressure is what you feel when you resist the forces accelerating you.

I think that you can control the speed at the top of the turn too, though. There's a few reasons for that, slowing down the linear speed will contribute to slowing down overall, one reason - stivots and such are created before the apex.

Racers for instance and higher performance skiers get their speed control more around the apex than at the bottom of the turn - the distribution of "pressure" is not constant throughout the turn but that is a matter of performance and completed turns, which adds a strong lateral component to acceleration.

You will see however that most skiers out there slow down more in the bottom half of the turn than the top, as the skis turn quickly when skidding them.

The trick with making symmetrical C turns though is to control your balance and make them more like carved turns than pivoted turns... to rely more on and control the "ski design" as opposed to strong body rotational inputs like pivoting or pushing the heels etc.

Cheers
 
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JESinstr

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@justaute If you are not completing your turns, the odds are (like a majority of intermediates and many "Advanced") that your focus on speed control is getting to a "Broadside" bracing position against the force that is creating the speed ie Gravity pulling you down the hill. To this end, you are most likely ending up pushing your heels. What you need to do is find a coach that understands that skis are designed to convert that that straight line force in to circular travel and will teach you the centered balanced fundamentals of making that happen. We call this process carving.
 

martyg

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Finishing tuns means skiing into neutral.
Practically speaking the transition, where skis are in neutral, is in the middle. So there is equal amounts of your line on each side. Watch most people ski. You'll see they get very far across the middle and suddenly turn. So there's not skiing into neutral, there's abrupt edge change. The transitiion or abrupt edge change is not in the middle but way off to the side. We all tend to default to that I suspect unless conscious of it.
If you have to ski slowly, with young kids etc, this is a very good thing to work on. You can feel it when you ski into neutral.

Neutral: skis are just at the edge angle where they are released. This is not flat when there's pitch though many think of them as flat. Doing a pivot slip you are in neutral.

If you're skiing in a "limited corridor" nothing is different, except if you think about it and cease to turn then you may exceed the limits of said corridor. This is not recommended. Disengage mind or retrain it.

This. Perfectly stated.

I have a video on my computer (typing on my tablet now) of Michaela from her slomo YouTube channel. Even on a slalom course you can see where she comes to the point of neutrality. All turns by efficient skiers, on all terrain, exhibit this.

If you rush the transition, that point of neutrality, if you don’t own that point of neutrality, your next turn will likely be a shitshow.

Love the passage about working on this while skiing with your kids. I had a private request yesterday with a low level intermediate. It is exactly what I did while instructing. Coming out of a turn, feeling balanced on both skis, initiating the kinestetic chian reaction of the new turn with a subtle, but unmistakable, flattening of the new inside ski, driven by the foot.
 
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Jack skis

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I've heard and read this same subject being argued so many times that this morning when I encountered it again I was reminded of the carnival barker spinning the wheel of chance and shouting: "Around and around she goes, and where she stops nobody knows!"
 

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