What does "finishing your turns" mean?

[JESinstr]

I like this. Something we agree on - finally!

Whew!

 

[Skitechniek]

@James
I know for certain you would not be able to make round turns on boards. I tried lol. You would have to pivot the board to a 90 degrees angle to the slope and then you would have to go straight across the slope in order to make 'turns'.

But if you think you can, try skiing on langlauf ski's and see how it goes. Here is a taste:

There is no evidence that most turns are circular and no I do not mean perfectly geometrically circular. But the theory behind how a ski steers is definitely known. It is impossible to ski rounded turns without some sort of camber or shape. The physics is very clear about that.

 

[James]

@James
I know for certain you would not be able to make round turns on boards. I tried lol. You would have to pivot the board to a 90 degrees angle to the slope and then you would have to go straight across the slope in order to make 'turns'.

But if you think you can, try skiing on langlauf ski's and see how it goes. Here is a taste:

There is no evidence that most turns are circular and no I do not mean perfectly geometrically circular. But the theory behind how a ski steers is definitely known. It is impossible to ski rounded turns without some sort of camber or shape. The physics is very clear about that.

Hilarious!
@Josh Matta ! We've got some experimenting with boards to do. No way I'm using cross country gear. Even Wcup nordic skiers are hopeless at turning.

 

[Skitechniek]

Of course they're hopeless at turning those, there is no shape and even though they are cambered, they hardly have any reverse camber when you tip them on edge. But even though it is hard, it is definitely possible to have some turning forces on cross country gear.

But if you know how hopeless it is to make turns on these things, then shouldn't it be quite logical that if you remove the camber also it will be completely impossible to turn? Everything that allows for turning forces will be no longer there. Hence, no turn by tipping it on edge...

There are quite some racing teams who do this to their kids btw. Even into powder. Very hilarious indeed! ;p Makes you appreciate shaped/cambered ski's lol!

 

[dbostedo]

So, you don’t think we could do round turns with boards?

Not unless your weight on them puts a little reverse camber into them, or you provide a twisting force.

 

[François Pugh]

To avoid confusion, I use the term arc-2-arc pure carved turns to define tail follows tip in a direction parallel to the ski's edge (I won't get into whether 99.999999% is pure enough to be considered pure). I also avoid the term skidding, because I've learned that to many it implies a lack of control, as opposed to drifting, which due to the increasing popularity of the four wheel drift is a term well understood by many.

 

[James]

But if you know how hopeless it is to make turns on these things, then shouldn't it be quite logical that if you remove the camber also it will be completely impossible to turn? Everything that allows for turning forces will be no longer there. Hence, no turn by tipping it on edge...

No, their boot/binding interface is hopeless.

Not unless your weight on them puts a little reverse camber into them, or you provide a twisting force.

You mean torsional twist?

 

[Skitechniek]

@James
Hasn't got anything to do with boot/binding interface.

https://serval.unil.ch/resource/serval:BIB_ACAC8C39080C.P001/REF

^In this experiment they skied on this:

The skiers still made the ski's turn on these things as their bindings...

I don't know what it is called, but some people do snowboarding without safety binding. Looks like a skateboard, but with edges. You simply stand on it, no safety binding no nothing. It turns cause it has shape...
It looks kind of like this:
EDIT:
This is what I meant, apparently it is called a snowskate.

 

[dbostedo]

You mean torsional twist?

No - I meant literally twisting you legs or whole body by throwing your weight around. I think if you try to, say, do garlands with straight boards that don't flex into reverse camber, you're just going to scribe a straight line across the hill.

 

[Rod9301]

Not sure if this is the thread, but there was some question whether a two footed release can be done without poles.

In this picture, you can see my ski tracks doing one.
Disregard the upper line, i just stepped down 6 inches before i started the release.

You can see the was no rotary action at all, because the tails did not smear up above the horizontal line of my skis (where i started)

My did point to the left of the picture.

All i did is flatten both skis, weight centered, and the tips went down. When they were pointed in the fall line, i tipped my left foot and finished the turn.

 

[James]

Not sure if this is the thread, but there was some question whether a two footed release can be done without poles.

It’s not a question of if one can, but that they don’t. The observation has been that for years, actually since Book 1, they demo it with a blocking pole plant. Doing it without doesn’t change doing it with on every demo. There’s great care in planting and stabilizing the pole downhill behind the foot. In action it’s the definition of a blocking pole plant.
The denial of reality is more interesting than the use. There’s a reason to use it.

 

[Rod9301]

It’s not a question of if one can, but that they don’t. The observation has been that for years, actually since Book 1, they demo it with a blocking pole plant. Doing it without doesn’t change doing it with on every demo. There’s great care in planting and stabilizing the pole downhill behind the foot. In action it’s the definition of a blocking pole plant.
The denial of reality is more interesting than the use. There’s a reason to use it.

Ok, but I saw many posts where is said that it can't be done without a poker plant.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Rod9301, were you pointing your upper body downhill at the release, and were you still pointing it downhill when the skis pointed downhill? In other words, did your upper body unwind as the skis turned downhill? If so, do you think its unwinding helped turn your skis? If not, why not? If yes, is there a problem with that help coming from the body above the skis?

 

[James]

No - I meant literally twisting you legs or whole body by throwing your weight around. I think if you try to, say, do garlands with straight boards that don't flex into reverse camber, you're just going to scribe a straight line across the hill.

Lol. So, now one isn’t allowed to use normal techniques to ski?
Plus, i never claimed this was a theoretical rigid straight board.
So, so far, following along what’s been said, if we took a straight ski and eliminated it’s camber, you couldn’t make linked wedge turns? Or they’d be terrible but doable because they have a 60m sidecut. Which at least is something.

@James
Hasn't got anything to do with boot/binding interface.

https://serval.unil.ch/resource/serval:BIB_ACAC8C39080C.P001/REF

^In this experiment they skied on this:
View attachment 89235
The skiers still made the ski's turn on these things as their bindings...

I don't know what it is called, but some people do snowboarding without safety binding. Looks like a skateboard, but with edges. You simply stand on it, no safety binding no nothing. It turns cause it has shape...
It looks kind of like this:
EDIT:
This is what I meant, apparently it is called a snowskate.

You’re going to have to point to me what section you want me to read.

 

[dbostedo]

Plus, i never claimed this was a theoretical rigid straight board.

My bad. I thought that was exactly what you claimed in this statement:

I’m totally confident I could do basic wedge turns, on normal eastern firm surface, with bindings screwed to 1 x 4 boards chin to head high. No sidecut, no camber.

 

[James]

My bad. I thought that was exactly what you claimed in this statement:

So rotary inputs are allowed?
I think it’s funny that everyone goes straight to the theoretical “board”.

I tried the Shaman 178cm mogul ski one day. That thing had huge camber, and healthy sidecut. It really didn’t want to make a short turn in groomed.

 

[slowrider]

WATCH: Skiing On Homemade 2x4 Skis

If you've spent anytime in the carpentry trade the thought screwing your ski binding into a 2x4 has probably crossed your mind. Well Josh Wong actually

www.google.com

 

[dbostedo]

So rotary inputs are allowed?

Sure, I guess. I'm just thinking you're going to wind up having to make abrupt, jerky changes of direction on the theoretical inflexible, no-sidecut skis, and not be able to make a round turn.

Perhaps modulating the pressure fore and aft could get some round skidded turns? But I'm having trouble imagining that working.

 

[dbostedo]

WATCH: Skiing On Homemade 2x4 Skis

If you've spent anytime in the carpentry trade the thought screwing your ski binding into a 2x4 has probably crossed your mind. Well Josh Wong actually

www.google.com

Man - I really wish they showed him making any kind of normal turn, rather than just park and pipe stuff.

 

[James]

Man - I really wish they showed him making any kind of normal turn, rather than just park and pipe stuff.

Yeah pretty worthless. You can actually buy rail skis that have no metal edges.
These Norwegian original style have about 4mm of sidecut each side. If I start now...