Understanding Traction Control Regulation in the Mountains

[Andy Mink]

SUV’s from TX

I had to go to Frisco, TX a few years ago. Lot's of SUVs. It's weird seeing so many Suburbans and Expeditions that are 4x2.

We get all kinds of folks from NYC/NJ with their Range Rovers and full tread summer rubber.

We see this fairly frequently in Reno. People move up from Vegas (you can tell by the specialty plates) or the Bay Area with their Escalades with 22 or 24" rims wrapped by the coolest looking rubber available. It might be ok in the summer but wide non-snow tires aren't good in the winter. For that matter, most wide tires period aren't good in snow and ice. The most popular tire for the "big tire" truck club here seems to be BFG AT2s. I had a set on my '06 Ram pickup truck. They were stock size and were probably near or at the bottom of the pile of tires I had as far as snow and ice performance. Big lugs<lots of siping.

 

[EricG]

I had to go to Frisco, TX a few years ago. Lot's of SUVs. It's weird seeing so many Suburbans and Expeditions that are 4x2.

.

I got stuck in Frisco a few years back in an ice storm that shut the area down. I watched a rental car get smashed with ice Let go from the roof of the 12 floor hotel I was staying at. I’ll see if I can find the picture. It was Hilarious .

 

[SSSdave]

https://www.tahoedailytribune.com/n...ut-chain-control-in-lake-tahoe-before-you-go/

...For four-wheel or all-wheel drive vehicles, put chains on all four tires.

I only have chains for the front tires on my Forester AWD that is legal.

I often drive SR88, that has the longest stretch of higher elevation snowy highway in the Sierra. Although the CALTRANS law requires a 25 mph speed limit for ALL vehicles during chain controls, even the CHP SUV vehicles drive somewhat faster on open highways when other vehicles are sparse. Thus won't usually bother AWD/FWD vehicles going reasonably faster on highways with sparse traffic.

The primary winter driving issue I find, is the many inconsiderate drivers that drive in snowy icy conditions without adequate separation from vehicles in front of them. Especially with long chains of vehicles on 2 lane mountain highways where there is little hope of passing. Many are urban drivers that by habit drive so on urban freeways with heavy traffic where such is necessary to prevent aggressive drivers from pulling into their faster lane front of them. Like on an urban freeway during commute periods if a driver leaves a long space in front of them while in the left fast lane, some impatient drivers behind will be certain to zip around in any open slower right lanes and then cut in front. And once that happens some others will do the same because not doing do ends up slowing everyone down behind them pushing them back in the order.

Or they have the habit of tailgating when a chain of vehicles in front of them are going too slow for their preference as though that is supposed to somehow encourage a slow vehicle way in front to go faster. Such small minds dominate our world! The stupidity is that such fair weather drivers choose to do so in snowy icy conditions despite obviously understanding its danger. In other words their ingrained habit and aggressiveness subconsciously overrides their weak common sense.

Additionally when driving at night on snowy icy mountain roads, taller large vehicles following behind with their huge headlamps that tailgate, make the often difficult visibility worse for a driver in front. Especially if it is actively snowing or a lot of slush is regularly being splashed up on one's windshield. To be considerate they should patiently back off and be content till a passing lane is reached. Proper safe following distance varies continuously depending on temperature, weather, and road conditions, something an intelligent considerate winter driver, especially most mountain locals, learn with experience over time.

 

[skibob]

https://www.tahoedailytribune.com/n...ut-chain-control-in-lake-tahoe-before-you-go/

...For four-wheel or all-wheel drive vehicles, put chains on all four tires.

I only have chains for the front tires on my Forester AWD that is legal.

I often drive SR88, that has the longest stretch of higher elevation snowy highway in the Sierra. Although the CALTRANS law requires a 25 mph speed limit for ALL vehicles during chain controls, even the CHP SUV vehicles drive somewhat faster on open highways when other vehicles are sparse. Thus won't usually bother AWD/FWD vehicles going reasonably faster on highways with sparse traffic.

The primary winter driving issue I find, is the many inconsiderate drivers that drive in snowy icy conditions without adequate separation from vehicles in front of them. Especially with long chains of vehicles on 2 lane mountain highways where there is little hope of passing. Many are urban drivers that by habit drive so on urban freeways with heavy traffic where such is necessary to prevent aggressive drivers from pulling into their faster lane front of them. Like on an urban freeway during commute periods if a driver leaves a long space in front of them while in the left fast lane, some impatient drivers behind will be certain to zip around in any open slower right lanes and then cut in front. And once that happens some others will do the same because not doing do ends up slowing everyone down behind them pushing them back in the order.

Or they have the habit of tailgating when a chain of vehicles in front of them are going too slow for their preference as though that is supposed to somehow encourage a slow vehicle way in front to go faster. Such small minds dominate our world! The stupidity is that such fair weather drivers choose to do so in snowy icy conditions despite obviously understanding its danger. In other words their ingrained habit and aggressiveness subconsciously overrides their weak common sense.

Additionally when driving at night on snowy icy mountain roads, taller large vehicles following behind with their huge headlamps that tailgate, make the often difficult visibility worse for a driver in front. Especially if it is actively snowing or a lot of slush is regularly being splashed up on one's windshield. To be considerate they should patiently back off and be content till a passing lane is reached. Proper safe following distance varies continuously depending on temperature, weather, and road conditions, something an intelligent considerate winter driver, especially most mountain locals, learn with experience over time.

One of the most intelligent things about winter driving I've ever read . . .

 

[slowrider]

Welcome to the road & steering wheel holders.

 

[NE1]

I have always heard that on a 4-wheel/all wheel drive vehicle, there should be four sets of chains or if only 2 sets, they should be placed on the back. The reason for this is that in the event of a hard emergency stop with only chains on the front, the front of the vehicle is liable to get traction and stop quicker than the back, resulting in the back end breaking free into an uncontrolled skid to one side or the other.

This is also a good reason not to use chains only on the front of a front wheel drive vehicle, BTW.

 

[Andy Mink]

This is also a good reason not to use chains only on the front of a front wheel drive vehicle, BTW.

Maybe this is the reason I see people putting chains on the rear of front wheel drive mini-vans!

 

[SSSdave]

I have always heard that on a 4-wheel/all wheel drive vehicle, there should be four sets of chains or if only 2 sets, they should be placed on the back. The reason for this is that in the event of a hard emergency stop with only chains on the front, the front of the vehicle is liable to get traction and stop quicker than the back, resulting in the back end breaking free into an uncontrolled skid to one side or the other.

This is also a good reason not to use chains only on the front of a front wheel drive vehicle, BTW.

The following is worthwhile read for those with older Subaru's like my 2007 Forester where putting chains on the front wheels is the consensus though one needs to keep speed below the 25 mph chain control law. In other words driving with chains on at higher speeds is asking for damage. Newer models don't have enough wheel well space. I've only put chains on my front wheels twice in CALTRANS R3 conditions during really deep snow on pavement and indeed seem to recall that helped.

https://allwheeldriveauto.com/your-subaru-snow-tires-and-chains-explained/

 

[NE1]

Maybe this is the reason I see people putting chains on the rear of front wheel drive mini-vans!

Actually it is exactly for that reason - while they are not improving their forward traction, they will have a better chance of stopping on a slick surface in an emergency.

 

[Andy Mink]

Actually it is exactly for that reason - while they are not improving their forward traction, they will have a better chance of stopping on a slick surface in an emergency.

Honestly, the folks I've seen doing it really shouldn't be out with or without chains. I'm pretty sure they had no idea.

 

[slowrider]

Actually chaining the front axle provides better traction & stopping. Throw a drag chain on the trailing axle for more stopping traction.

 

[tball]

The following is worthwhile read for those with older Subaru's like my 2007 Forester where putting chains on the front wheels is the consensus though one needs to keep speed below the 25 mph chain control law. In other words driving with chains on at higher speeds is asking for damage. Newer models don't have enough wheel well space. I've only put chains on my front wheels twice in CALTRANS R3 conditions during really deep snow on pavement and indeed seem to recall that helped.

https://allwheeldriveauto.com/your-subaru-snow-tires-and-chains-explained/

I'm guessing you were not running winter tires when you needed to put chains on your Forester?

I can't imagine any road being open where you'd need chains on an AWD if you had snow tires. All-season tires yes, but winter tires and AWD should eliminate any need for chains unless you go way off the beaten path into super deep snow.

 

[SSSdave]

I'm guessing you were not running winter tires when you needed to put chains on your Forester?

I can't imagine any road being open where you'd need chains on an AWD if you had snow tires. All-season tires yes, but winter tires and AWD should eliminate any need for chains unless you go way off the beaten path into super deep snow.

Indeed all season M&S rated steel belted radials. Few use snow tires other than some mountain locals because they wear out quickly on pavement. Anyone driving from California urban areas where below freezing temperatures are uncommon, will be driving far longer miles on above freezing pavement to reach ski resorts.

 

[Bill Miles]

The following is worthwhile read for those with older Subaru's like my 2007 Forester where putting chains on the front wheels is the consensus though one needs to keep speed below the 25 mph chain control law. In other words driving with chains on at higher speeds is asking for damage. Newer models don't have enough wheel well space. I've only put chains on my front wheels twice in CALTRANS R3 conditions during really deep snow on pavement and indeed seem to recall that helped.

https://allwheeldriveauto.com/your-subaru-snow-tires-and-chains-explained/

This site says that using studded tires will damage the AWD due to their aggressive nature. I don't believe it and thing Subaru would provide a warning if true.

 

[wyowindrunner]

I have always heard that on a 4-wheel/all wheel drive vehicle, there should be four sets of chains or if only 2 sets, they should be placed on the back. The reason for this is that in the event of a hard emergency stop with only chains on the front, the front of the vehicle is liable to get traction and stop quicker than the back, resulting in the back end breaking free into an uncontrolled skid to one side or the other.

think it kinda depends on where you are- a long uphill slog with deep snow- two tracks or unbroken back country- it is more efficent to pull than push. put 'em on the front. and keep your shovel handy.

 

[skibob]

Indeed all season M&S rated steel belted radials. Few use snow tires other than some mountain locals because they wear out quickly on pavement. Anyone driving from California urban areas where below freezing temperatures are uncommon, will be driving far longer miles on above freezing pavement to reach ski resorts.

There is a thread about the "new" winter hybrid tires. I've tried out two (michelin and continental). They don't make extra noise/harsh ride/wear out quickly. But they are about 90% (totally subjective) as good as snow tires. I have them on year round.

 

[firebanex]

I'm guessing you were not running winter tires when you needed to put chains on your Forester?

I can't imagine any road being open where you'd need chains on an AWD if you had snow tires. All-season tires yes, but winter tires and AWD should eliminate any need for chains unless you go way off the beaten path into super deep snow.

Fairbanks, Alaska in January when it rains for a day during a freak chinook event and then goes back to regular below zero January temps. Ice rink conditions on top of the usual snow and black ice. I still was required to go to work.. 35mph with chains on all 4 tires of my AWD subaru forester with winter tires. Still had some entertaining times stopping, my chains were all oriented such that I would slide sideways when stopping.

Unfortunately with how the climate is changing, this sort of rain and ice event in the dead of winter happens just about every year now for the last 10 years or so. I remember the first instance of it happening about 15 years ago while I was still in High School.. it absolutely blew everyone's mind here because rain in December had never happened before. They canceled school and such about 2 hours into the school day because of the conditions.. of course this was after my dad had chained up the truck and managed to get me to school.

So yes, a highly location specific example of instances where AWD, Chains, and legit snow tires are required.

 

[tball]

Fairbanks, Alaska in January when it rains for a day during a freak chinook event and then goes back to regular below zero January temps. Ice rink conditions on top of the usual snow and black ice. I still was required to go to work.. 35mph with chains on all 4 tires of my AWD subaru forester with winter tires. Still had some entertaining times stopping, my chains were all oriented such that I would slide sideways when stopping.

Unfortunately with how the climate is changing, this sort of rain and ice event in the dead of winter happens just about every year now for the last 10 years or so. I remember the first instance of it happening about 15 years ago while I was still in High School.. it absolutely blew everyone's mind here because rain in December had never happened before. They canceled school and such about 2 hours into the school day because of the conditions.. of course this was after my dad had chained up the truck and managed to get me to school.

So yes, a highly location specific example of instances where AWD, Chains, and legit snow tires are required.

Well, I'm guessing you are not running studded winter tires when you needed to put chains on your Forester?

I'm not buying its location-specific. I've run studded tires on my 4x4 Tundra for nearly 20 years of powder chasing in Colorado. I can't imagine any conditions (on-road) where I would ever want chains on my truck.

If you need chains, you've got the wrong tires for sure, and possibly the wrong vehicle. Maybe you Subaru guys should consider a Toyota 4x4 for your ski vehicle!

The concrete proof that I'll never ever need chains is when I pulled another car up Loveland Pass in conditions similar to what you describe above:
https://www.pugski.com/threads/no-f...es-isnt-good-enough-for-colorado-skiing.1137/

 

[slowrider]

Ever been to AK interior.

 

[firebanex]

Well, I'm guessing you are not running studded winter tires when you needed to put chains on your Forester?

I'm not buying its location-specific. I've run studded tires on my 4x4 Tundra for nearly 20 years of powder chasing in Colorado. I can't imagine any conditions (on-road) where I would ever want chains on my truck.

If you need chains, you've got the wrong tires for sure, and possibly the wrong vehicle. Maybe you Subaru guys should consider a Toyota 4x4 for your ski vehicle!

The concrete proof that I'll never ever need chains is when I pulled another car up Loveland Pass in conditions similar to what you describe above:
https://www.pugski.com/threads/no-f...es-isnt-good-enough-for-colorado-skiing.1137/

I've had studded tires before, you are lucky to get two winters of effective driving out of them from what I've seen. Once the studs are worn down, you dig them out and run them with out studs till you run out of tread. Not worth it especially since they have hard start and end dates when you can use them or get a ticket. A Subaru with Blizzaks is the standard up here, I've got Nokian Hakkapelitas on my Baja cause I wanted to be different (freaking great snow and ice tire btw). Fun thing you learn about pickup trucks up here, they need a couple hundred pounds of stuff in the bed in order to get proper traction in the winter otherwise the rear is too light.

Looked at that thread you linked, that road is in better shape than the roads along my commute to work and to the my local ski area. Depending on route I take I have about 3-6 miles of similar to worse before I hit the highway into town during my commute. Main highway is of course clear, but anything smaller is a variable state of ice, mounds, loose snow, and whatnot else. Our Borough unfortunately can't pay enough to entice snowplow drivers away from working on the two local military bases.. so we have pretty meh winter maintenance if you wondered. We've had three weeks of snow on the ground and it was front page news last week that they were finally able to staff both a night time AND daytime crew for snow removal, I wish I wasn't kidding. Understaffed road maintenance plus our winters make the biggest difference for Fairbanks verse the rest of the country, our roads are never clear down to bare and dry pavement for 5 months or so. Ice always forms on the road surface from snow, water, exhaust, or humidity. Then it snows and sticks around some more. I wish some of our roads were in as good shape as the one in that thread.