Understanding Traction Control Regulation in the Mountains

[surfsnowgirl]

Unfortunately it seems most cars come with all season tires, my Subaru included. Too many drivers don't get snow tires or even higher quality all seasons because they have an AWD or 4WD car. Perhaps they can't afford to or have nowhere to store a second set of tires but at least get a quality after market tire because you won't be getting top notch rubber from a stock car at the dealership. I see lots of cars on the side of the road or in ditches on the way to/from Vermont every weekend and aside from careful driving much of the accidents could easily be avoided if they invested in some snow tires. Our condo is at one mountain and we ski there and at another 10 miles up the road and I see too many cars in ditches and when they have out of state plates it's hard not to take on the position of there goes another yahoo without proper tires in a ditch...................

 

[slowrider]

You can't go skiing if your in the ditch on your lid.

 

[Tom K.]

Ppl drive 60 on pack snow?

Tip from Dad, when I was learning to drive at 12 (yes): Ignore the speedometer in snowy conditions. You will know the appropriate speed by feel.

Thanks, Dad!

He may also have said something about not exceeding the speed limit, but I think I blanked that part out!

 

[surfsnowgirl]

Tip from Dad, when I was learning to drive at 12 (yes): Ignore the speedometer in snowy conditions. You will know the appropriate speed by feel.

Thanks, Dad!

He may also have said something about not exceeding the speed limit, but I think I blanked that part out!

Dad's are very wise.................... I use the by feel way of driving. I try to go the speed limit but if roads are hairy I just go the speed that feels comfortable and often that's slower than the speed limit. I try to pull over if I can to let people pass me if they must. Of course these are often jokers who think they are invincible in their SUV and I end up passing them anyway when they have driven themselves off the road.

 

[Ogg]

Tip from Dad, when I was learning to drive at 12 (yes): Ignore the speedometer in snowy conditions. You will know the appropriate speed by feel.

Thanks, Dad!

He may also have said something about not exceeding the speed limit, but I think I blanked that part out!

Around here I can’t drive the speed that feels comfortable in the snow because there’s always someone in my way going way too slow. I try to be nice and not scare them when I pass but I’ve probably made a few people soil themselves when things have gotten a bit “loose” while passing.

 

[slowrider]

When I get out on the Boulevard I do a brake check to get a feel for traction conditions. However, that can change in 100 ft. So I look at the ditch and ask myself. Can I walk away from it at this speed.

 

[cantunamunch]

Around here I can’t drive the speed that feels comfortable in the snow because there’s always someone in my way going way too slow. I try to be nice and not scare them when I pass but I’ve probably made a few people soil themselves when things have gotten a bit “loose” while passing.

Sure beats being behind a loose slow-poke. Never know when they'll spin out in front of you or fail to make the next uphill.

 

[Ogg]

Tip from Dad, when I was learning to drive at 12 (yes): Ignore the speedometer in snowy conditions. You will know the appropriate speed by feel.

Thanks, Dad!

He may also have said something about not exceeding the speed limit, but I think I blanked that part out!

Around here I can’t drive the speed that feels comfortable in the snow because there’s always someone in my way going way too slow. I try to be nice and not scare them when I pass but I’ve probably made a few people soil themselves when things have gotten a bit “loose” while passing.

Sure beats being behind a loose slow-poke. Never know when they'll spin out in front of you or fail to make the next uphill.

i feel far safer cruising along at 50mph by myself than in a line of cars slipping and sliding at 15mph.

 

[Tom K.]

Dad's are very wise.....................

Right?!

The older I get, the smarter my Dad gets.

He was a certifiable idiot back when I was 16.

 

[surfsnowgirl]

Right?!

The older I get, the smarter my Dad gets.

He was a certifiable idiot back when I was 16.

So true.... I'm regretful I was such a sh!t when i was 16 and didnt appreciate my dad's wisdom.

I miss him and hope he looks down on me and realized I listened to him after all

 

[eok]

Seeing as there's a lot of good snow tire related comments here...

I recently posted a query related to tire selection in the Garage and Car Talk forum.

Trying to decide between another set of X-ice Xi3s or trying a set of Nokian S3 SUVs & looking for feedback:

https://www.pugski.com/threads/michelin-x-ice-xi3-vs-nokian-r3-suv.16297/#post-383297

 

[Henry]

If one is on a road trip that goes through other states or provinces, you need to check the regs in each jurisdiction you'll drive in. In general the states or provinces accept the paperwork from other areas (your driver's license is accepted), but they only accept their own equipment regulations. Chain laws or 4wd with M+S tires (or not) are examples where the home law might not be sufficient in another area.

When towing a trailer if the trailer has brakes it'll need chains on one axle as well as chains on the tow vehicle when chains are required (or in any case when the road is slick). I've used a travel trailer on ski trips. Worked great, and on the downhill drive from the ski area the chains made for a slow drive, but they did the job of keeping me and the trailer on the slick road.

There are now several all-season or all-terrain tires that have been tested and meet the snow severe service requirement--they carry the 3-peak mountain snowflake (3PMSF) symbol on the sidewall and may be called all-weather tires. These will be very good in snow, but they don't have the ice traction of the best real winter tires. M+S mud & snow tread tires don't have to meet a traction standard. They merely meet a geometric standard of so much void vs. so much tread--something like the tire must have a row of fairly big grooves that start at the edge of the tread and extend toward the center of the tire. Also, at least 25 percent of the surface area must be grooves.. 3PMSF tires meet a (pretty low) standard of a test on snow.

 

[HDSkiing]

Started running the Nokian all weather GR3 on my Subaru’s (2011 Outback & 2019 Crosstrek) last season and glad I did since the snow was so epic out west here.

I have a steep climb from 7K that ends over 10K in the parking lot with lots of switchbacks Traction going uphill in deep snow is great, but where I really notice the improvement is going downhill around the corners, mostly using the transmission to hold the speed rather than the brakes.

I also carry a set of tire chains but have never come close to needing them, along with a shovel and tow strap.

Kinda chuckling about all the comments about speed, I’ll pass people on our 2 lane mountain road going uphill but only in a couple spots, mostly large SUV’s/pickup trucks that just cannot corner that well and have to go slow out of necessity. But I never do that going downhill. Even with the best snow tires and a subie that is certain to not end well.

The most scared I’ve been is on I-70 around the continental divide. Total insanity with cars trying to go 50-60 plus MPH on slick roads in low visibility and weaving in and out of traffic. It’s no wonder sometimes you can’t go 1/4 mile without seeing someone in the ditch. The most common are the larger SUV’s and particularly pickup trucks that if just driven like they should be (slower than low profile veh) would be fine, but once those heavy babies start to go they are hard to get back on the road.

Ive found the secondary roads in Colo & NM to be safer despite the fact that they don’t always get priority for plowing. Few semis and most people are not in such a hurry and besides if you go off the road there you will have a really long wait for AAA which seems to keep everyone on their best behavior.

 

[tball]

The most scared I’ve been is on I-70 around the continental divide. Total insanity with cars trying to go 50-60 plus MPH on slick roads in low visibility and weaving in and out of traffic. It’s no wonder sometimes you can’t go 1/4 mile without seeing someone in the ditch. The most common are the larger SUV’s and particularly pickup trucks that if just driven like they should be (slower than low profile veh) would be fine, but once those heavy babies start to go they are hard to get back on the road.

Yep. Driving this stretch can be terrifying. Controlling my vehicle and stopping from speed in an emergency situation is why I love my studded tires. Not having winter tires in these conditions asking for it.

 

[slowrider]

I don't miss throwing Iron on a 8 axle truck. Not for a minute.

 

[mdf]

A remark in another thread made me wonder: what are the rules in National Parks? Same as the state they are in, some nationwide standard, or nothing?

 

[sparty]

A remark in another thread made me wonder: what are the rules in National Parks? Same as the state they are in, some nationwide standard, or nothing?

Hmm, apparently Yosemite has federal regulations around chain requirements, as does Mt. Rainer:
https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/tirechains.htm
https://www.nps.gov/mora/planyourvisit/tire-chain-faq.htm
They do seem to be following the lead of the states that host them, at least in part.

I'm not aware of anything similar for Yellowstone, but they do close most of the park roads to wheeled traffic through the winter months. When we visited Crater Lake in April, I don't recall any signs or notices about carrying chains, but they did have plenty of warnings about road closures being possible.

 

[John Webb]

If your vehicle had a hand brake you can pull up on his may help on steep icy downhill roads.

Pull up lightly on the hand brake - this puts a bit of drag on the rear wheels that improves traction
and keeps the rear end from swinging around. My Highlander stinks as the emergency brake is a
foot pedal -all or nothing.

 

[Josh Matta]

If your vehicle had a hand brake you can pull up on his may help on steep icy downhill roads.

Pull up lightly on the hand brake - this puts a bit of drag on the rear wheels that improves traction
and keeps the rear end from swinging around. My Highlander stinks as the emergency brake is a
foot pedal -all or nothing.

ummm no....dragging the ebrake is no way superior to just using the brakes and probably make the car more likely to spin as its more likely to lock the rear end if you just dragging the E brake....

 

[cantunamunch]

ummm no....dragging the ebrake is no way superior to just using the brakes and probably make the car more likely to spin as its more likely to lock the rear end if you just dragging the E brake....

If he locks the rear end while the front wheels are still rolling the pivot is the rear end, which is what he wants.

'Improves traction' of course isn't strictly correct. Nothing can do that unless it changes the tires or the weight on them.
"Changes the steering characteristics of the front maybe enough that you can recover in some situations" isn't remotely as compelling though.

Would that Highlander be less likely to understeer into a ditch when faced with a steep icy curving down grade if he was able to do this? We'll never know.