Unbuckled boots

[JESinstr]

Back in the day, I did my fair share of ski drills with unbuckled boots but in regards to the modern shaped ski and typical binder setup:

The center of shape is under the arch of the foot. The center of the ski is under the friction pad. This places the center of the ski forward in regards to the ski's shape.

When we activate the Flex Complex (ankles, knees and hips) in a way that we begin to create angles and direct our COM down through the arch for balance, the shin will press into the corner of the tongue of the boot transmitting force to the increasing edges and center of the ski that is the forward (turn initiating) bias that the shaped design invokes. So why would one want to unbuckle their boots and take that function away or worse yet create ankle flexion that promotes raising the heel?

That being said, at the apex and into the belly of the turn, my outside leg is pretty much "Cuff Neutral" because I want the center of shape to be ground zero for pressure management and balance. So having buckles unbuckled during that part of the turn could be an interesting experience although by unbuckling, you lose the edging support of the boot .

 

[Seldomski]

Toe and instep buckle are fairly loose and sometimes open up on their own. I rebuckle if I notice that happening.. The top two are snug, and the power strap is usually as tight as I can get it (in the morning) and over the tongue of the boot directly. The top buckle/strap get a bit looser as things compress, so the top doesn't stay super tight for long. I like to have the shell move instantly when I move my feet/legs.

 

[geepers]

Lotta interesting stuff here.

The heel lift would probably have been an issue in the boots I've recently sent to the big powder bowl in the sky.

New boots for this season (well, they did get a few Oz days) so perhaps may test this out. Although my gut feel is I get a better read of the snow and more direct control of the ski when correctly buckled up.

 

[KingGrump]

PSA

Do not try this at home unless you are double sure your boots fit well.
If you have to ask whether your boots fit well. It doesn't.
If you have slop in your boots, you can and will injure your ankle if you insist on doing the stupid human tricks (SHT) we are currently discussing in this thread. I have seen the injury happened first hand. It's not a pleasant experience. Especially for the injured party.

OK, with the PSA done. We can move on along.

Expert testimonial.

The first turn after buckling was like having a Ferrari on my feet instead of a Yugo.

Like @KevinF said, your Camry will feel like a Ferrari afterward. Iff it doesn't kill you first.

Just to get the housekeeping out of the way.
My boot setup is a Atomic WC 130 Pro with a heat molded shell. Stock lace up liner. Custom foot bed. Hotronic boot heater. Booster strap (expert) done up against on the liner tongue. The shell plastic over the top most buckle has been removed to allow the booster strap unrestricted contact to the liner. Even though it is a lace up liner. No laces are used. The liner stays in the boot. Just stuff the foot in. Very standard setup.

When we activate the Flex Complex (ankles, knees and hips) in a way that we begin to create angles and direct our COM down through the arch for balance, the shin will press into the corner of the tongue of the boot transmitting force to the increasing edges and center of the ski that is the forward (turn initiating) bias that the shaped design invokes. So why would one want to unbuckle their boots and take that function away or worse yet create ankle flexion that promotes raising the heel?

So you are saying the force (energy / command signal) to be focus on the 10 to 11 and 1 to 2 o'clock of the upper cuff (depending on which foot) and travel down to the lower clog then onto the ski? Is that an accurate description of the "energy path"?

So does that also mean the turns are initialized from the shin?

If that is the actual energy path. Then how does the Apex boots work? Or is it, they don't work?



I think a better understanding of the "energy (command signal) path" can be found if we ask, "What do the boot fitters do when one wants their boots soften?"

 

[eyvoom]

I was sort of kidding but still think it's entirely possible to pull your foot or liner out of an unbuckled boot going over the handlebars, before the heel pops up to release the unbuckled boot.

Can confirm! Had a student do it once.

 

[Nobody]

Who skis with unbuckled boots?

How much unbuckled - a couple loose to everything including the power strap undone?

How frequently - rarely or always a few runs per day or always?

If an instructor do you get students to do this? What type of students? What type of runs?

-I do.
-Only opened (buckles "hooked"), all four, booster/velcro strap though, are usually "done".
Tried fully opened (not even hooked and booster/velcro undone) a couple of times last year, in off the shelf boots (non racing boots) as an instructor-in-training; pretty "scary" (even if on an easy portion of an euro red run) but really enlightening and learnt a lot from the experience.
-The first run/first two runs of each day.
- Not yet proposed, it is my intention to, but I'd propose it only to people who is not easily intimidated by challenges ,
who are eager to experiment and exit from their comfort zone (envelope), at least the unbuckled (but hooked) version.
I'd do it on a very easy run at first and only to high intermediate / advanced, then watch and see their reaction/adaption to the new situation and decide if it's worth to propose the completely unbuckled+unhooked version of the exercise.

 

[JESinstr]

So you are saying the force (energy / command signal) to be focus on the 10 to 11 and 1 to 2 o'clock of the upper cuff (depending on which foot) and travel down to the lower clog then onto the ski? Is that an accurate description of the "energy path"?

So does that also mean the turns are initialized from the shin?

If that is the actual energy path. Then how does the Apex boots work? Or is it, they don't work?

View attachment 87559

I think a better understanding of the "energy (command signal) path" can be found if we ask, "What do the boot fitters do when one wants their boots soften?"

Last I heard, turns are initiated by first getting the ski on edge. IMO depending on the functional goal, the structure of the boot, be it stiff or be it soft, be it tall or be it short, affects the skier's ability to apply and manage pressure.

 

[Seldomski]

Booster strap (expert) done up against on the liner tongue. The shell plastic over the top most buckle has been removed to allow the booster strap unrestricted contact to the liner.

The booster strap does most of the work anyway, right? When I tighten the strap like this, the buckles on the cuff relax. The buckles over my toe and instep are just holding the shell closed, not compressing my foot. So I guess I ski with my boots 'unbuckled' also? Or perhaps just 'lightly buckled.'

 

[Doug Briggs]

I ski with my lower two buckles just snug enough to keep the snow out. The cuff buckles are moderately tight. I don't have to continuously adjust my buckles throughout the day; my boots have an all day, like a glove, fit. Both my race and everyday boots are heat molded shells (Fischer RC4 Pro 130 and Atomic Hawx XTD 130).

Typically if I feel I need a little more upper boot support, I'll just cinch the power strap a little tighter which on both pairs the non-stretchy, Fischer, cam-lock strap and go over/around the plastic cuff.

 

[Nobody]

I was sort of kidding but still think it's entirely possible to pull your foot or liner out of an unbuckled boot going over the handlebars, before the heel pops up to release the unbuckled boot.

Can confirm! Had a student do it once.

Had a friend who "ejected" from a buckled boot once. It was a rear entry Nordica (two buckles), one binding heel piece was also torn out from the ski . Not much phisical damage inferte on foot/heel, just swollen anda bruise or two, had to wait a couple of days for the swell to recede before skiing again...in Lange four buckles boots, then...

 

[KingGrump]

The booster strap does most of the work anyway, right? When I tighten the strap like this, the buckles on the cuff relax. The buckles over my toe and instep are just holding the shell closed, not compressing my foot. So I guess I ski with my boots 'unbuckled' also? Or perhaps just 'lightly buckled.'

Bingo.


The spine is the key.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I have several questions that, if answered all together, might clarify why people do this. I hope some folks are willing to offer answers here, even though answers are probably embedded in posts above. We are on page 3 and so finding them and putting them together looks like an odious chore.

1. What is the purpose for skiing with buckles unbuckled, when done as a drill (not as an everyday thing)?
2. What do people mean by "unbuckled"? Do they mean really unbuckled, with all four buckles flapping loose, or do they mean the buckles are clamped at the loosest option, and no longer flapping? Or are only some of them unbuckled?
3. Does "skiing with buckles unbuckled" mean with skiing with power strap unstrapped? Or do people who do this as a drill always keep the power strap strapped, since being totally unbuckled might not be such a good idea?
4. Would the people who ski with buckles unbuckled every day offer their specific reasons for doing this? Do their boots hurt if buckled? Do they want a looser foot-plastic interface for performance purposes? Clearly I'm guessing.

 

[crgildart]

^^Skiing with the top buckles loose or completely unbuckled is a great drill for fore/aft position awareness. Another good exercise for that is skiing in tele gear from time to time.

 

[CoPow]

I don't do it that much but,

1. Just to feel the balance on the skis as warm up. I need to be really centered this way, can't go fore, can't go aft, so it makes me aware of precisely where the center is.

2. Buckles flapping,

3. Power strap loose or undone. Didn't think about the possibility of binding not releasing but if the binding doesn't release, you are not getting that much force to the feet/ankle, no? Anyway, I only cruise slowly on blue groomers so never get even close to falling.

4. Just as a warm up. I could do one legged yoga or something as an alternative.

 

[S.H.]

I have several questions that, if answered all together, might clarify why people do this. I hope some folks are willing to offer answers here, even though answers are probably embedded in posts above. We are on page 3 and so finding them and putting them together looks like an odious chore.

1. What is the purpose for skiing with buckles unbuckled, when done as a drill (not as an everyday thing)?
2. What do people mean by "unbuckled"? Do they mean really unbuckled, with buckles flapping loose, or do they mean the buckles are clamped at the loosest option, and no longer flapping?
3. Does "skiing with buckles unbuckled" mean with skiing with power strap unstrapped? Or do people who do this as a drill always keep the power strap strapped, since being totally unbuckled might not be such a good idea?
4. Would the people who ski with buckles unbuckled every day offer their specific reasons for doing this? Do their boots hurt if buckled? Do they want a looser foot-plastic interface for performance purposes? Clearly I'm guessing.

For me:
1. fore/aft balance/awareness
2a. As a drill - completely unbuckled, buckles flapping, often powerstrap undone. (easy to moderate groomed terrain only)
2b. My everyday skiing - bales on the hooks where I would want them if I were to fully buckle, but the buckles are completely open (not clamped down). Powerstrap (booster) cinched tight.
3. As a drill, I prefer going fully unstrapped. For everyday skiing, I prefer to leave the power strap on, since it gives more control
4. I do it mainly for comfort. I'm in a downsized plug - even if I were to buckle every run, I would unbuckle for the lift ride. At some point, I realized I can get enough performance for enough of my day-to-day skiing that I don't need to buckle for everything. Now, I basically only buckle if I'm going to be running gates (which I occasionally do with my athletes). There's no denying that a fully buckled boot gives a bit quicker and more powerful response ... I just don't need that most of the time. Off-piste, a boot that's attuned for tech racing on very hard surfaces, which mine is, is too reactive for my liking - I could get a second boot, or I can just ski unbuckled.

 

[KingGrump]

1. What is the purpose for skiing with buckles unbuckled, when done as a drill (not as an everyday thing)?

Often I hear skiers talk about skiing from the feet up. But also strongly advocate shin to the tongue. Unbuckled boot will get you to stand on your own two feet rather than lean onto the front of you boot.

2. What do people mean by "unbuckled"? Do they mean really unbuckled, with buckles flapping loose, or do they mean the buckles are clamped at the loosest option, and no longer flapping?

For me, unbuckled means bails latched with the wings up.
Having the buckles closed without much tension is about the same thing. The wings up just a visual reminder.

3. Does "skiing with buckles unbuckled" mean with skiing with power strap unstrapped? Or do people who do this as a drill always keep the power strap strapped, since being totally unbuckled might not be such a good idea?

I usually fasten my booster strap first then fasten the two upper cuff buckle then just tighten the booster strap to take out slack. Snug but no additional yanking. Then the buckles are open with with wings up.

4. Would the people who ski with buckles unbuckled every day offer their specific reasons for doing this? Do their boots hurt if buckled? Do they want a looser foot-plastic interface for performance purposes? Clearly I'm guessing.

Boot does not hurt when buckled. Only time I do that is when I need to ski at 100%. Race GS skis on hard snow. No fall terrain.
An unbuckled boot allows for more foot/ski awareness and softer skiing. I generally ski at about 40 to 60% of my limit. I call it sustainable skiing. Between the steep, crud, bumps and 100+ days on snow, I need all the help I can get.

 

[KevinF]

I have several questions that, if answered all together, might clarify why people do this. I hope some folks are willing to offer answers here, even though answers are probably embedded in posts above. We are on page 3 and so finding them and putting them together looks like an odious chore.

1. What is the purpose for skiing with buckles unbuckled, when done as a drill (not as an everyday thing)?
2. What do people mean by "unbuckled"? Do they mean really unbuckled, with all four buckles flapping loose, or do they mean the buckles are clamped at the loosest option, and no longer flapping? Or are only some of them unbuckled?
3. Does "skiing with buckles unbuckled" mean with skiing with power strap unstrapped? Or do people who do this as a drill always keep the power strap strapped, since being totally unbuckled might not be such a good idea?
4. Would the people who ski with buckles unbuckled every day offer their specific reasons for doing this? Do their boots hurt if buckled? Do they want a looser foot-plastic interface for performance purposes? Clearly I'm guessing.

1. I find I have to much more precise in my ankle movements as you can easily get much more forward than you normally would be able to. There's no "hard stop" of plastic keeping you in a fairly limited range of motion anymore.

2. "Unbuckled" to me is having the buckles on the first or second notch of the ladder, but not closed. i.e., just enough tension to keep them from flapping around.

3. I always keep the Booster strap cinched like normal. I just don''t want it flapping around. I should try loosening it a touch... that could get really interesting.

4. I don't do it every day; a few times a sesaon for a few runs. I'll generally do it on easy blues if I feel like I'm camping out on the boots cuffs and not working the ski tip-to-tail, etc. I did it to start the season this year, but haven't done it (intentionally...) since.

 

[KingGrump]

Last I heard, turns are initiated by first getting the ski on edge.

And how do we do that? Getting the skis up on edge. By leaning onto the upper corner of the boot tongue?

 

[JESinstr]

And how do we do that? Getting the skis up on edge. By leaning onto the upper corner of the boot tongue?

If a skier leans to get the skis on edge, they have more fundamental issues than buckle tension.

 

[KingGrump]

If a skier leans to get the skis on edge, they have more fundamental issues than buckle tension.

Not my idea.

When we activate the Flex Complex (ankles, knees and hips) in a way that we begin to create angles and direct our COM down through the arch for balance, the shin will press into the corner of the tongue of the boot transmitting force to the increasing edges and center of the ski that is the forward (turn initiating) bias that the shaped design invokes.