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Unbuckled boots

Pequenita

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1. fore/aft awareness
2. "unbuckled" means bale in the 2nd position but not closed. All four, but like I said before, my instep often winds up flapping on a regular day. It's still pretty supportive, imho.
3. Power strap is strapped snugly for the situation; once I close the buckles, I need to readjust the strap
4. I only do this for the first 1 or 2 runs. But that can be up to 6 miles, depending on what 2 runs those are

Boots fit totally fine - they don't hurt. And doing the first couple of runs with boots unbuckled is something I've heard for several years now at normal-person clinics. I've skied in group lessons/clinics where everyone's buckles are unclasped.
 

Prosper

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Toe and instep buckle are fairly loose and sometimes open up on their own. I rebuckle if I notice that happening.. The top two are snug, and the power strap is usually as tight as I can get it (in the morning) and over the tongue of the boot directly.

This is how I was instructed by all the good bootfitters I've worked with on proper boot buckling. They've all also recommended buckling the top buckles, getting the Booster/power strap tight, flexing a few times to get the foot properly seated onto the foot bed and then lightly buckling the instep and toe buckles

1. What is the purpose for skiing with buckles unbuckled, when done as a drill (not as an everyday thing)? Fore/aft awareness.
2. What do people mean by "unbuckled"? Do they mean really unbuckled, with all four buckles flapping loose, or do they mean the buckles are clamped at the loosest option, and no longer flapping? Or are only some of them unbuckled? Booster strap tight as usual under the cuff, top buckles clamped at the loosest option.
3. Does "skiing with buckles unbuckled" mean with skiing with power strap unstrapped? Or do people who do this as a drill always keep the power strap strapped, since being totally unbuckled might not be such a good idea? As above
4. Would the people who ski with buckles unbuckled every day offer their specific reasons for doing this? Do their boots hurt if buckled? Do they want a looser foot-plastic interface for performance purposes? Clearly I'm guessing. Typically buckle to my usual setting (three notches and snug up Booster strap again) after a warm up run or two. If skiing easy all day I sometimes don't tighten.
 

Winks

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My rule is simple, whether on or off your boots should always be buckled. I express that to anyone I have ever done boots for.
 
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TS
geepers

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I have several questions that, if answered all together, might clarify why people do this. I hope some folks are willing to offer answers here, even though answers are probably embedded in posts above. We are on page 3 and so finding them and putting them together looks like an odious chore.

1. What is the purpose for skiing with buckles unbuckled, when done as a drill (not as an everyday thing)?
2. What do people mean by "unbuckled"? Do they mean really unbuckled, with all four buckles flapping loose, or do they mean the buckles are clamped at the loosest option, and no longer flapping? Or are only some of them unbuckled?
3. Does "skiing with buckles unbuckled" mean with skiing with power strap unstrapped? Or do people who do this as a drill always keep the power strap strapped, since being totally unbuckled might not be such a good idea?
4. Would the people who ski with buckles unbuckled every day offer their specific reasons for doing this? Do their boots hurt if buckled? Do they want a looser foot-plastic interface for performance purposes? Clearly I'm guessing.

Good set of questions. Perhaps an additional one re the item highlighted by @Philpug - who is using well fit race derived (or plug) boot with stiff plastic and who is using typical recreational boot that might not fit as snug?

According to a few of the descriptions above I'm at least part way there. Toe and instep buckles are always set just to keep snow out. Strap and top buckles are relatively loose until foot-liner pack down a bit / day warms up / it's time to step it up a few notches / morning tea - whichever happens 1st.

Interesting re fore/aft balance - guess it answers the question of whether we should be in the 'middle' of ski or pushing the $h*t out of the tongue at the top of the turn.
 

Noodler

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So I tried this today. Not as a drill, but for full-on skiing for 10 runs. I was in my B2 Raptors which have the tightest most precise fit of any of my boots. I had them "barely" buckled to make sure I didn't accidentally rip off a buckle in a high edge angle turn.

I use a lot of foot inversion/eversion movement in my skiing. I also have to wear compression socks due to my leg/ankle swelling issues in my injured leg. What I found was that by the 10th lap I was developing some uncomfortable rubbing on the lateral side of my bad ankle. Having the boots so loose was giving me a huge RoM for my foot movements; I liked that. But the rubbing was making my skin on the ankle not so happy. Anyhow, it was an interesting exercise and one I'll probably do again, but probably not for 10 runs.
 
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KingGrump

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Interesting re fore/aft balance - guess it answers the question of whether we should be in the 'middle' of ski or pushing the $h*t out of the tongue at the top of the turn.

Fore and aft balance sensitivity is the beginning. By standing on the feet. The turn can be started from the feet. A minor rolling of the ankle will tip the ski up on edge and slight stroking of the feet will engage the edge smoothly. The signal is not from half way up the shin at the top of the boot. No lag time. No gross body movement. Unless you want to.

Most skiers visualize initializing the turn by moving the shin forward in the boot to contact the tongue. They visualize that impulse travel from the front part of the upper cuff down through the front of the boot to the lower clog. Finally ending in the ball of the feet to pressure the front of the ski. Right or wrong, that is how most visualize the turn mechanic. I’ll just leave it here.

Let’s talk about the boot. the Start Haus video above. The strap for the lower buckle on the cuff is trimmed to eliminate interference with the instep of the lower clog. That tells me that is no direct connection (impulse path) through the front of the boot. The impulse path is further back on the boot. Way back at the spine. Hence the direct connection to the spine with a booster strap. When I am skiing, I am not trying to get to the front of the boot. I want to activate the spine.

The other mod Jim made to the boot is softening of the boot by trimming the saddle of the lower clog. That tells me the impulse path goes down the spine and travels forward through the lower clog in a generally horizontal direction.

The impulse path aligns directly with our foot. We can vary the pressure distribution on the bottom of our foot by simply flexing the ankle in whichever direction desired. The ski’s reaction to the bottom of foot pressure changes are pretty direct. The foot is literally on top of the ski. The best part is the foot gets the feedback from the ski and snow almost directly. The foot can sense and react simultaneously. A really short feedback/reaction loop.

This whole thing falls apart when the heel is lifted. Think interruption of the impulse path.

Foot Walking.jpg

Time to go to bed, I’ll talk about how to prevent the heel from lifting tomorrow.
Just remember this is soft skiing not racing.
 

Tony S

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Let’s talk about the boot. the Start Haus video above. The strap for the lower buckle on the cuff is trimmed to eliminate interference with the instep of the lower clog. That tells me that is no direct connection (impulse path) through the front of the boot. The impulse path is further back on the boot. Way back at the spine. Hence the direct connection to the spine with a booster strap. When I am skiing, I am not trying to get to the front of the boot. I want to activate the spine.

The other mod Jim made to the boot is softening of the boot by trimming the saddle of the lower clog. That tells me the impulse path goes down the spine and travels forward through the lower clog in a generally horizontal direction.

This is good stuff. Got me thinking.
 

Noodler

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Watch out for the thought police. What I posted is considered heresy by most.

And the often unspoken truth is that for most boot shells, the forward flex, driven from the boot spine, manifests as lower clog deformation; typical through and around the instep/mid-foot. The lower boot will get wider as the "roof" of the lower clog lowers (or at least tries to, depending on fit). The only boots I have that do not exhibit this lower clog deformation are my B2 Raptor 150 flex plugs. Even the 3-piece Flexon/Full Tilt boots suffer from some deformation in the lower shell (although less than most 2-piece overlap shells).
 

cantunamunch

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And the often unspoken truth is that for most boot shells, the forward flex, driven from the boot spine, manifests as lower clog deformation; typical through and around the instep/mid-foot. The lower boot will get wider as the "roof" of the lower clog lowers (or at least tries to, depending on fit). The only boots I have that do not exhibit this lower clog deformation are my B2 Raptor 150 flex plugs. Even the 3-piece Flexon/Full Tilt boots suffer from some deformation in the lower shell (although less than most 2-piece overlap shells).

Ever wonder if all the side-softening like on older Hawx or on older Salomon or with 'Fit' zones were really an effort to uncouple clog rear flex from the forefoot?

Ever wonder if the beam bending resistance of the connected toe/heel lugs on your B2 Raptors was a factor in the lack of clog deformation?
 

KingGrump

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And the often unspoken truth is that for most boot shells, the forward flex, driven from the boot spine, manifests as lower clog deformation; typical through and around the instep/mid-foot. The lower boot will get wider as the "roof" of the lower clog lowers (or at least tries to, depending on fit). The only boots I have that do not exhibit this lower clog deformation are my B2 Raptor 150 flex plugs. Even the 3-piece Flexon/Full Tilt boots suffer from some deformation in the lower shell (although less than most 2-piece overlap shells).

All of our gears have limitations. SO so our bodies and mind. The underlying principle of soft skiing is not to exceed those limits. Whether it is gear, physical or mental.
 

cantunamunch

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I don't think that is possible on my Technicas. There's a tab on the back that you lift up and push down.

Yeh, at one point I completely dismantled the assembly, on the notion that I could control it's default engagement to set default cuff tilt. It was basically a buckle ladder and I just nudged it over a bit.

Didn't have my reading glasses on and reassembled the whole thing upside down -on one boot-. Didn't notice until ski day. :(
 

JESinstr

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Fore and aft balance sensitivity is the beginning. By standing on the feet. The turn can be started from the feet. A minor rolling of the ankle will tip the ski up on edge and slight stroking of the feet will engage the edge smoothly. The signal is not from half way up the shin at the top of the boot. No lag time. No gross body movement. Unless you want to.

Most skiers visualize initializing the turn by moving the shin forward in the boot to contact the tongue. They visualize that impulse travel from the front part of the upper cuff down through the front of the boot to the lower clog. Finally ending in the ball of the feet to pressure the front of the ski. Right or wrong, that is how most visualize the turn mechanic. I’ll just leave it here.

Let’s talk about the boot. the Start Haus video above. The strap for the lower buckle on the cuff is trimmed to eliminate interference with the instep of the lower clog. That tells me that is no direct connection (impulse path) through the front of the boot. The impulse path is further back on the boot. Way back at the spine. Hence the direct connection to the spine with a booster strap. When I am skiing, I am not trying to get to the front of the boot. I want to activate the spine.

The other mod Jim made to the boot is softening of the boot by trimming the saddle of the lower clog. That tells me the impulse path goes down the spine and travels forward through the lower clog in a generally horizontal direction.

The impulse path aligns directly with our foot. We can vary the pressure distribution on the bottom of our foot by simply flexing the ankle in whichever direction desired. The ski’s reaction to the bottom of foot pressure changes are pretty direct. The foot is literally on top of the ski. The best part is the foot gets the feedback from the ski and snow almost directly. The foot can sense and react simultaneously. A really short feedback/reaction loop.

This whole thing falls apart when the heel is lifted. Think interruption of the impulse path.

View attachment 87719

Time to go to bed, I’ll talk about how to prevent the heel from lifting tomorrow.
Just remember this is soft skiing not racing.
I don't know how our previous interactions heretofore got us going in opposite directions but I couldn't agree more with what you wrote above.
The only point I want to make is that we shouldn't look at the ankles, knees and hips in isolation. Bad things can happen when we do. Proper flexing patterns are needed to support your position above.
One question I do have re this concept of soft skiing. How does the term "Cuff Neutral" play into it?
.
 

KingGrump

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The only point I want to make is that we shouldn't look at the ankles, knees and hips in isolation. Bad things can happen when we do. Proper flexing patterns are needed to support your position above.
One question I do have re this concept of soft skiing. How does the term "Cuff Neutral" play into it?
.

Definitely have to consider the proper flexing pattern that involves the the whole body. Knees, hip, torso and what not. I just think the boot/ankle/foot area is the most misunderstood.
Not familiar with the term "cuff neutral." Can you elaborate?
 

JESinstr

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@
Definitely have to consider the proper flexing pattern that involves the the whole body. Knees, hip, torso and what not. I just think the boot/ankle/foot area is the most misunderstood.
Not familiar with the term "cuff neutral." Can you elaborate?

I have seen the term in past threads and in articles online. It's a term associated with centered stance. Probably should drop its usage.
 

Skitechniek

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I do it for training purposes. Trying to improve my balance and decrease the gap in level between my skiing with my boots buckled and my boots unbuckled.

Skiing with my boots unbuckled also reminds to stay centered and not lean into the cuff/stand on the front of my feet.
 

LiquidFeet

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I do it for training purposes. Trying to improve my balance and decrease the gap in level between my skiing with my boots buckled and my boots unbuckled. Skiing with my boots unbuckled also reminds to stay centered and not lean into the cuff/stand on the front of my feet.

Oh. Sudden realization. Maybe.

Do most people here assume that leaning on the cuff necessarily means lightening the heels and/or standing on the balls of the feet? Is this belief the the origin of the dictum to not hang out on the front of the cuffs?

If you are in this camp and always associate light heels/heavy balls-of-feet with maintaining strong cuff contact, then do you ski with buckles unbuckled in order to promote standing more solidly on the whole foot without lifting/lightening the heel?
 
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Crank

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Any of you guys ever read Eric and Rob DesLauriers' book, Ski the Whole Mountain? They talk about little toe big toe transitions.

I ski the slow line fast and slow, but only on groomers.
 

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