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Unbuckled boots

Nobody

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1. What is the purpose for skiing with buckles unbuckled, when done as a drill (not as an everyday thing)?
2. What do people mean by "unbuckled"? Do they mean really unbuckled, with all four buckles flapping loose, or do they mean the buckles are clamped at the loosest option, and no longer flapping? Or are only some of them unbuckled?
3. Does "skiing with buckles unbuckled" mean with skiing with power strap unstrapped? Or do people who do this as a drill always keep the power strap strapped, since being totally unbuckled might not be such a good idea?
4. Would the people who ski with buckles unbuckled every day offer their specific reasons for doing this? Do their boots hurt if buckled? Do they want a looser foot-plastic interface for performance purposes? Clearly I'm guessing.

My .02
1) Fore/Aft and lateral "overall awareness" (mean that I am trying to stimulate feet perceptions) and getting a feeling for ho much I move legs and shift weight around when performing a turn. last but not least, feet will set better in the boot and "preprare" their bed for when I will close down the Buckles
2)-3)Unbuckled as in opened but engaged, Velcro or Booster still strapped in, though. On the exercises, everything was undone, bukles not engaged, Velcro or Booster unstrsapped. At that point, could have had on any pair of say, military boots, for that matter.
4)No, boots do not hurt, but as said in 1) skiing unbuckled for a couple of runs will allow my fet to "seat" better in the boots and will, in turn, cause less need for adjustments duringthe day (in my case)
 

Skitechniek

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Oh. Sudden realization. Maybe.

Do most people here assume that leaning on the cuff necessarily means lightening the heels and/or standing on the balls of the feet? Is this belief the the origin of the dictum to not hang out on the front of the cuffs?

If you are in this camp and always associate light heels/heavy balls-of-feet with maintaining strong cuff contact, then do you ski with buckles unbuckled in order to promote standing more solidly on the whole foot without lifting/lightening the heel?

Leaning into the cuff does make your heels light. There is a difference between strong cuff contact due to ankle flexion and leaning into the cuff. Heck, when I ski gs ski's, I absolutely boot crush those things, doesn't mean I am leaning into them.

For me unbuckled means buckles and velcro totally hanging loose btw. When I was still racing I used to run lots of gates that way. Leaning into your boot will get you nowhere when skiing injected ice. Now I mainly do it when I ski on one leg or ski powder/terrain to improve my skiing and indeed to promote standing on the whole foot.
 
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LiquidFeet

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Leaning into the cuff does make your heels light. There is a difference between strong cuff contact due to ankle flexion and leaning into the cuff. Heck, when I ski gs ski's, I absolutely boot crush those things, doesn't mean I am leaning into them.

For me unbuckled means buckles and velcro totally hanging loose btw. When I was still racing I used to run lots of gates that way. Leaning into your boot will get you nowhere when skiing injected ice. Now I mainly do it when I ski on one leg or ski powder/terrain to improve my skiing and indeed to promote standing on the whole foot.
@Skitechniek, thank you for that response. You crush boots without "leaning" (read: weight on the ball-of-foot). Until now I've not separated the two; using ankle-flexion to maintain cuff-contact while maintaining solid heel pressure, and getting that cuff contact by moving balance to the ball-of-foot.

When people say not to "hang out on the cuffs," they must be associating maintaining continuous cuff pressure with being on the balls-of-feet, and maybe this comes from their personal experience. If this indeed has been their experience, then perhaps the forward lean of their cuffs exceeds their dorsiflexion ROM. You have more experience in this than me... what do you think?

When you ran gates with boots fully unbuckled, then ran them with the cuffs buckled up, I assume your time improved and you were reminded of the functionality of that cuff. I'm guessing ... you could feel the role the cuffs were playing in that improvement and gained something worthwhile from feeling the difference between cuff and no cuff. Have I got that right?

Comments anybody? I have always been curious why trainers say don't hang out on the cuffs. I do, but my heels are FIRMLY weighted. I like it that way.
 
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bbinder

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Does trimming the cuff so that the booster strap can easily snug around the liner have any unintended consequences?
 

Noodler

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Does trimming the cuff so that the booster strap can easily snug around the liner have any unintended consequences?

I think I can speak to this as I have my B3 Raptors trimmed, but my B2 shells are not. I decided to not immediately trim the B2 to see how it compared to the trimmed B3. Having the top of the cuff trimmed to clear the Booster definitely makes the use of the Booster more critical, but simpler. However, the shortening of the cuff is quite noticeable when I compare the B3 to the B2. I'm now finding that the 1/4" or so of cuff height on the untrimmed B2 provides more support up front and really hasn't been problematic in getting the Booster sitting in a good place and functional in its operation. I now prefer the unmodified B2, but I think it really depends on the shell as to what will be best for the skier.
 

Skitechniek

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@Skitechniek, thank you for that response. You crush boots without "leaning" (read: weight on the ball-of-foot). Until now I've not separated the two; using ankle-flexion to maintain cuff-contact while maintaining solid heel pressure, and getting that cuff contact by moving balance to the ball-of-foot.

When people say not to "hang out on the cuffs," they must be associating maintaining continuous cuff pressure with being on the balls-of-feet, and maybe this comes from their personal experience. If this indeed has been their experience, then perhaps the forward lean of their cuffs exceeds their dorsiflexion ROM. You have more experience in this than me... what do you think?

When you ran gates with boots fully unbuckled, then ran them with the cuffs buckled up, I assume your time improved and you were reminded of the functionality of that cuff. I'm guessing ... you could feel the role the cuffs were playing in that improvement and gained something worthwhile from feeling the difference between cuff and no cuff. Have I got that right?

Comments anybody? I have always been curious why trainers say don't hang out on the cuffs. I do, but my heels are FIRMLY weighted. I like it that way.

That is a hard question with a way too long answer, but I am going to try and keep it short and concise as possible. Some things I say are my own experience/opinion, since there is no research on the topic, other arguments I make are well researched.

When I ran gates with my boots unbuckled vs. my boots buckled the times hardly differed. Only on hard course sets and turns with big loads the boot makes a difference. It is a false premise that boots increase ski performance, this has been researched. Not in the way I state it, but factors that influence ski radius have been researched and boots are not one of the parameters that influence turning radius. You should see boots more as human performance improver, not a ski performance improver. To understand what I am saying you should read into some articles about the relation between ski boots and load on the joints.

This is a quote from "Flexural behavior of ski boots under realistic loads – The concept of an improved test method":
Coincidentally experienced skiers tend to keep a constant lower leg posture using boots with varying stiffness [16, 17].
Since a softer boot gives less resistance against external bending moments, the muscles in hip, knee and ankle need to generate
more muscular power, eventually leading to faster fatigue.

This is what I mean by a human improver. Stiff boots tend to absorb a bit of the load, hence boots can make it that you are able to withstand a little bit more GRF/g-forces etc... Your joints and muscles have to work less hard to achieve the same result. Other than that, the boots don't do much for you. EDIT: Boots also help with mistakes, if you get thrown off balance the boot provides a platform to get yourself centered again. Without it you will just fall over or need super human strength to keep yourself on your feet.

Why you don't want to lean into the boot is an argument I make based of personal experience. However, the fact that you want to be centered has been researched in for example Birdcage 1991 and also in some Canadian paper with L4 skiers. The reason you want to stay centered along the whole foot is because in that position you achieve optimal strength and balance. If you have to perform squats on your toes vs. on you whole foot you will probably be stronger while performing a squat on your whole foot. Balance wise, if I try to push you over while you are on your toes, I will easily be able to get you off balance. If you stand on your whole foot, you have a bigger BoS and will be able to withstand to force I apply better. Furthermore if the tail or tip of the ski becomes too light while skiing ice, there is a fairly big chance the ski won't hold edge and washes out. Definitely talking from experience here LOL. Not pretty.

In short, you train with unbuckled boots to improve strenght and balance. You'll have to withstand the pressure without help of the boot and you cannot afford to not be on the whole foot and get thrown off balance, because you will be completely fucked. Excuse my French.

Another fun paper that has been done is this one:
https://serval.unil.ch/resource/serval:BIB_ACAC8C39080C.P001/REF
Different topic than what we're discussing, but why I bring it up is because part of the experiment was performed by FIS/EC racers on this thing:
dbc40e3f5d83d58c0386070998728c37_dynamometer.png

This was their binding, no safety binding and they were wearing a 20 kg backpack. They can ski on this cause they are centered.

I have read some topics on this forum and I know it's heresy to say it here, but the only way to properly move your CoM forward along the length of the outside ski is to push your inside ski forward, or outside ski backwards (it requires very good ankle mobility though). There is no other way to move your CoM forward along the length of the ski and keep your weight on the whole foot. You are either perfectly centered on two ski's with equal tips, or your CoM is forward on one ski and back on the other. Which is completely fine, as long as you balance on the ski where your CoM is forward. In racing, moving your weight forward by standing on the front of your feet is a technical error.


If you analyse this clip e.g. you can clearly see Hirscher's ski tips are far from equal when there is lots of offset in the turns. Moving your CoM forward along the length of the ski influences turning radius. If I am correct about the general consensus of this forum many of you would probably view this as a technical error, I do not. :)
 
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cantunamunch

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I have read some topics on this forum and I know it's heresy to say it here, but to only way to properly move your CoM forward along the length of the outside ski is to push your inside ski forward, or outside ski backwards (it requires very good ankle mobility though). There is no other way to move your CoM forward along the length of the ski and keep your weight on the whole foot. You are either perfectly centered on two ski's with equal tips, or your CoM is forward on on ski and back on the other. Which is completely fine, as long as you balance on the ski where your CoM is forward. In racing, moving your weight forward by standing on the front of your feet is a technical error.

:thumb::golfclap:
 

Skitechniek

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@LiquidFeet
About your dorsiflexion question. A plug boot has a forward lean of about 18 degrees and the soles are at around 2 degrees. This means you need 16 degrees of dorsiflexion in order to achieve shin contact. This premise is however not completely true due to the shape of your body. Even if you have very well fitted boots, the boot will be a little wider than your ankle/leg, meaning you'll need more than the 16 degrees of dorsiflexion in to have shin contact. Probably closer to the 20 degrees range, maybe even a little more.

The average dorsiflexion of a person is I think somewhere between 15 and 20 degrees (probably closer to the 20 degrees range). This basically means that for most people having shin contact in a plug boot means you have already used all of your RoM in the dorsiflex department. Luckily there are recreationals boots available with a forward lean of only 13 degrees, which fixes this problem. This means however that for a lot of recreational skiers it is completely useless to ski a plug boot, because they don't have the RoM to benefit from its support. They will need to stand on their toes in order to achieve shin contact.

This is also one of the reasons why ski schools should definitely teach to keep the tips as equal as possible. If your tips are not equal you will need even greater ankle mobility in order to stay on your whole foot on the outside ski (20+ degrees for sure), which most people simply don't have.
 
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Jenny

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FWIW, I'm having some PT for my ankle right now and when they measured mine he said 10 degrees was normal - not sure what kind of range they see for normal but I can ask at my next appointment if I can remember that long. The one they're doing work on is 5 degrees.
 

Skitechniek

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I'll give some extra explanation as to what I know about the topic. But it might unnecessarily complicate things. :doh:

There is some research on the topic of dorsiflexion, but there is no general consensus on a standard range.

Some say 10, others say 20, others say 30 etc...
Firstly there is a difference between weightbearing and nonweightbearing flexion. Weightbearing flexion is higher than nonweightbearing flexion (weightbearingflexion meaning your dorsiflexion while standing on one leg).

This means that the level of your lateral balance also greatly impacts your balance along the length of the ski. The better you are at weighting one ski, the better you are at dorsiflexing your feet while skiing (or outside foot I should say).

But in my experience 10 degrees is awfully low and since the forward lean of most (all?) boots is between 13 and 18 degrees I would be surprised if this (10 degrees) were to be true. That's why I said 'I think 15-20 degrees', cause it is more of a 'this is what I have seen thing' and not a 'I know it for sure thing'. And since there is no scientific consensus on the topic please do take it with a grain of salt. But the papers I've read on the topic mostly state dorsiflexion figures of nonweightbearing flexion (which I think is the relevant figure) between 16,5 and 21,5 degrees. So 10 degrees is possible, but you're probably an outlier if that were the case.

What I found interesting when I read these papers and what I took away from it is the fact that your weightbearing dorsiflexion is much higher than your nonweightbearing flexion. I thought of it as an indicator to keep the tips equal if you your lateral balance isn't optimal and if you are not properly centered (read almost every costumer in ski schools). If the inside ski is in front of the other there is a chance people put weight on the ski that inside ski. And the more you distribute your weight along the two ski's, the less your dorsiflexion becomes. The more you are able to stand on one ski, the more potential dorsiflexion there is, the more you can play around with shifting your CoM back and forth along the length of the ski.
 
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LiquidFeet

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...and there's this 2014 study, below, which describes how amount of knee flexion impacts the dorsiflexion ROM when weight-bearing and non-weight-bearing. Some studies find gender differences. I couldn't find studies covering vastly different ages.

"Normal" ROM in the ankle is evidently a moving target.

 

Skitechniek

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@LiquidFeet
Thanks, interesting! Never read that one! :)
Seems that knee flexion positively affects dorsiflexion figures, which might falsify what I stated above about people having trouble with their RoM to achieve shin pressure, if you bend your knees enough.
 
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crgildart

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Your vehicle is more than a quarter mile from the base lodge.. assuming you have boot sole covers that and boot up at the car.. Buckled or unbuckled??:huh:
 

Noodler

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@LiquidFeet
About your dorsiflexion question. A plug boot has a forward lean of about 18 degrees and the soles are at around 2 degrees. This means you need 16 degrees of dorsiflexion in order to achieve shin contact. This premise is however not completely true due to the shape of your body. Even if you have very well fitted boots, the boot will be a little wider than your ankle/leg, meaning you'll need more than the 16 degrees of dorsiflexion in to have shin contact. Probably closer to the 20 degrees range, maybe even a little more.

The average dorsiflexion of a person is I think somewhere between 15 and 20 degrees (probably closer to the 20 degrees range). This basically means that for most people having shin contact in a plug boot means you have already used all of your RoM in the dorsiflex department. Luckily there are recreationals boots available with a forward lean of only 13 degrees, which fixes this problem. This means however that for a lot of recreational skiers it is completely useless to ski a plug boot, because they don't have the RoM to benefit from its support. They will need to stand on their toes in order to achieve shin contact.

This is also one of the reasons why ski schools should definitely teach to keep the tips as equal as possible. If your tips are not equal you will need even greater ankle mobility in order to stay on your whole foot on the outside ski (20+ degrees for sure), which most people simply don't have.

This is mostly fine and I'm good with the numbers you stated, but you have neglected the bootboard ramp angle which must be accounted for in any discussion of the dorsiflexion RoM. Any amount of positive ramp angle at the bootboard will open the ankle more and therefore provide more RoM when considering the forward lean of the boot.

Hmmm - I just re-read your post and I think your use of "soles" was actually referring to the bootboards, not the soles of the boot shells. Probably an English as a second language thing, right? :)
 

Ogg

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Your vehicle is more than a quarter mile from the base lodge.. assuming you have boot sole covers that and boot up at the car.. Buckled or unbuckled??:huh:
I don't remember the last time I actually booted up at my vehicle. I always walk to the lodge in street shoes/boots and boot up there, even if it's hard to find a good spot.
 

Jenny

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Some say 10, others say 20, others say 30 etc...
Firstly there is a difference between weightbearing and nonweightbearing flexion. Weightbearing flexion is higher than nonweightbearing flexion (weightbearingflexion meaning your dorsiflexion while standing on one leg).

This means that the level of your lateral balance also greatly impacts your balance along the length of the ski. The better you are at weighting one ski, the better you are at dorsiflexing your feet while skiing (or outside foot I should say).

But in my experience 10 degrees is awfully low and since the forward lean of most (all?) boots is between 13 and 18 degrees I would be surprised if this (10 degrees) were to be true. That's why I said 'I think 15-20 degrees', cause it is more of a 'this is what I have seen thing' and not a 'I know it for sure thing'. And since there is no scientific consensus on the topic please do take it with a grain of salt. But the papers I've read on the topic mostly state dorsiflexion figures of nonweightbearing flexion (which I think is the relevant figure) between 16,5 and 21,5 degrees. So 10 degrees is possible, but you're probably an outlier if that were the case.

What I found interesting when I read these papers and what I took away from it is the fact that your weightbearing dorsiflexion is much higher than your nonweightbearing flexion.

I've been told I have crappy dorsiflexion, so was actually surprised when he said 10 was normal. Figured it must be on the low side, if true. And it was definitely a non weight bearing measurement. I know from yoga that I can go more than that when I have something to work against. And thank goodness, or else I'd be in real trouble with a lot of activities.

His measurement was done with my leg out straight on the table, and me just pulling my toes toward me as much as possible. Now I’m going to see if I can find the forward lean of my boots . . .
 
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CoPow

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I snapped an achilles tendon a couple of years ago, and lost about 10 degrees of RoM in that ankle, but I still have about 20 degrees on that leg. My good ankle has about 30 and my wife has a bit more. 7 degrees sounds like an absolute minimum to WALK without limping, which (walking without limping) could be the definition of NORMAL by itself in medical world. In any case, I don't feel any difference between left and right when I'm skiing as far as RoM goes. Skiing (fortunately) requires pretty limited RoM in the ankles compared to a lot of other sports. I can only feel the degreased RoM when I jump off things that are 4-5 feet tall with my tennis shoes or something like that. But I'd be very surprised if people with "good" leg had less than 20 degrees of RoM even if that were medically considered normal. People DO jump off things 4-5 feet tall as a kid and they probably don't lose that much RoM as they age.

Edit: It's obvious but just in case. By RoM, I mean from 90 degrees. I.e., I can flex my good ankle and create 60 degrees or less between the shin and the ground.
 
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Skitechniek

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This is mostly fine and I'm good with the numbers you stated, but you have neglected the bootboard ramp angle which must be accounted for in any discussion of the dorsiflexion RoM. Any amount of positive ramp angle at the bootboard will open the ankle more and therefore provide more RoM when considering the forward lean of the boot.

Hmmm - I just re-read your post and I think your use of "soles" was actually referring to the bootboards, not the soles of the boot shells. Probably an English as a second language thing, right? :)

Haha yeah, English is not my native tongue. Didn't know it was called a bootboard, which is why I used soles. Thanks for informing me! :)
 
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